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[Girlinhat]

So I love Shadowrun as an idea... but it fails in the specifics.  Like by the books, there's not much detail in just how things work, like how many people can fit in a car, what exactly a commlink looks like (is it a phone, a modem brick, what?) or what size different weapons are (there's military books that don't differentiate what weapons are personnel and what are vehicular).

I think I'm going to run a game, mainly 4th ed rules, but a bit of picking and borrowing from other things and making my own homebrew rules in a lot of places.  That'll mean that players need to be open about what they're trying to do and not 'surprise the GM' because the rules may not work how they're planning and ruin things.

Anyone interested or have suggestions?  It'll mostly likely be on roll20 + skype for voice chat, on the weekend or friday nights.

[uber pye]

I'm interested. Where are you planing on it taking place?

[Girlinhat]

I'm interested. Where are you planing on it taking place?

Updated OP.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Ya know, while I think this is a great idea and applaud it, I can't help but point out that your request for players not to "surprise the gm" is perhaps unreasonable. From everything that i've played, DnD to 40k, with bits of paranoia, ruining the GMs plot is an integral part of the experience. Far be it from me to tell you how to run your sessions, but it seems to be taking the fun out of it no? Besides, how would you know what rules you REALLY need if you're not going to let the players experiment?

[h3lblad3]

I would imagine that in future runs surprising the GM would be okay. But in this particular case, it appears that the entirety of the rules won't be available. So the players would be fighting rules that are being made up as needed (since the GM won't know what all needs fixed, I imagine), as well as the GM's personality.

As the game goes on and all the blanks are filled in (as well as a better understanding of the GM's style), things would be more readily open.

Then again, I'm not the GM, so I don't know how things will be done for real. This is all just speculation.

[puke]

Dont they have those details anymore?  I guess I sort of stopped reading through the books at some point.

Back in 2nd ed (and third, as 3rd ed was pretty much 2nd ed revised) there were specific capacity ratings for vehicles.  They told you how many bench seats and how many bucket seats, and exactly how much CF you could install if you ripped out a seat.  I think this got a bit more abstract in 4th, but it did still give you an indication of capacity and such.

Weapons always fell into categories that were pretty well defined and based on modern military arms.  Most things got illustrations.

As for the electronics... it seemed like most things in early editions were described as being about the size of a pack of cigarettes -- but I think they stopped saying things like that as modern technology has miniaturized faster than anyone expected.

Really interesting perspectives there, I never thought anyone would say that Shadowrun lacked for specific details.  It isn't GURPS or Roll Master or Phoenix Command or anything like that, but it is definitely a game that wallows in its minutiae.  It highly encourages specialization, optimization, minmaxing, and all sorts of "gear porn" wherein players are rewarded for combining minor details of equipment into cascading mechanical benefits.

Will be interested to see what you homebrew for it, though I will presently demure from getting back into RPGs.

[Myroc]

As the current Shadowrun campaign I'm in at the moment is almost completely dead with scant hope of resurrection in the future, consider my interest piqued.

[Girlinhat]

Ya know, while I think this is a great idea and applaud it, I can't help but point out that your request for players not to "surprise the gm" is perhaps unreasonable. From everything that i've played, DnD to 40k, with bits of paranoia, ruining the GMs plot is an integral part of the experience. Far be it from me to tell you how to run your sessions, but it seems to be taking the fun out of it no? Besides, how would you know what rules you REALLY need if you're not going to let the players experiment?

Oh you can still derail the plot PLENTY.  That's perfectly fine.  But the game mechanics, you can't try to surprise with.

Let me give you an example.  In Pathfinder, there's a feat you can take called "crusader's flurry"  If you're a cleric and your god has a preferred weapon, and you're ALSO a monk who has flurry of blows for rapid attacks, then you can make a flurry of blows using that weapon - normally it must be unarmed.  So instead of a series of 6 punches in a round, the monk-cleric could make 6 greatsword swings in a round.

In my game, if you try to just do that, and then the first round of combat you say "I use flurry of greatsword" I'm going to say "It doesn't work that way in homebrew."  But if you talk with me ahead of time and ASK if the game mechanics allow it, then we can avoid this problem.  If you still want to be a weird character and like, use the sewer entrance instead of the skylight, then THAT is perfectly fine.  It's mainly just that when you're building your character or your weapons, to double check that I'll allow it.  Just don't assume you can put a railgun on your motorcycle simply because the rules don't forbid it...

As for the item specifics, 4th ed gives basically none.  Vehicles may list their top speed, but don't list occupancy limit or anything, EVEN THOUGH there's vehicles mods you can install to double the occupancy limit.  It just doesn't tell you things, and will have descriptions like "The superpat rocket is a sophisticated guided munition" and then list its damage, range, and accuracy.  You can judge by the damage if it's supposed to be a vehicular weapon, but if it's 'sophisticated' then is it a really expensive handheld launcher?  It just doesn't say...

[puke]

Huh.  I remember Arsenal being pretty good, but I don't have a copy readily available to check.  I thought weapons were organized by category, mostly with illustrations at the top of the page.  Riffles would be with other riffles, grenade launchers with other grenade launchers, vehicle weapons all together in one place.

What you say does remind me how vague vehicles got.  You had to really dig through both the description as well as the generall guidelines given in the SR4 book for the size class to get an idea of how big something was.  There actually ARE rules for passenger capacity for each vehicle class, but they are buried somewhere and you have to cross reference a bunch of things.

A good example of this vagueness is that -- and this is from memory -- a small drone is somewhere between the size of a toaster and a mediumish dog.  These are VASTLY different sizes, but the capacity for what you can slap in one is the same.

While this seems overly simple and vague, it played MUCH better than SR 2&3 which had these vehicle construction rules that were possibly more complicated than SJG's Car Wars.  Gives you some basic limitations on what something can do, but allows you some freedom to tweak as you see fit.

Anyway, 4 is a pretty good edition, I'm sure you'll have fun.

[uber pye]

i remember there being a occupancy limit table some where 

or mabye we just assumed that the 7 runner party could fit in a sedan if the decker got shoved in the trunk/decker-cocoon

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Ya know, while I think this is a great idea and applaud it, I can't help but point out that your request for players not to "surprise the gm" is perhaps unreasonable. From everything that i've played, DnD to 40k, with bits of paranoia, ruining the GMs plot is an integral part of the experience. Far be it from me to tell you how to run your sessions, but it seems to be taking the fun out of it no? Besides, how would you know what rules you REALLY need if you're not going to let the players experiment?

Oh you can still derail the plot PLENTY.  That's perfectly fine.  But the game mechanics, you can't try to surprise with.

Let me give you an example.  In Pathfinder, there's a feat you can take called "crusader's flurry"  If you're a cleric and your god has a preferred weapon, and you're ALSO a monk who has flurry of blows for rapid attacks, then you can make a flurry of blows using that weapon - normally it must be unarmed.  So instead of a series of 6 punches in a round, the monk-cleric could make 6 greatsword swings in a round.

In my game, if you try to just do that, and then the first round of combat you say "I use flurry of greatsword" I'm going to say "It doesn't work that way in homebrew."  But if you talk with me ahead of time and ASK if the game mechanics allow it, then we can avoid this problem.  If you still want to be a weird character and like, use the sewer entrance instead of the skylight, then THAT is perfectly fine.  It's mainly just that when you're building your character or your weapons, to double check that I'll allow it.  Just don't assume you can put a railgun on your motorcycle simply because the rules don't forbid it...

As for the item specifics, 4th ed gives basically none.  Vehicles may list their top speed, but don't list occupancy limit or anything, EVEN THOUGH there's vehicles mods you can install to double the occupancy limit.  It just doesn't tell you things, and will have descriptions like "The superpat rocket is a sophisticated guided munition" and then list its damage, range, and accuracy.  You can judge by the damage if it's supposed to be a vehicular weapon, but if it's 'sophisticated' then is it a really expensive handheld launcher?  It just doesn't say...

well that's fair enough then! It's better to not allow gimpiness anyways.

[Remuthra]

I am also interested, though I've not yet played Shadowrun.

EDIT: Is 4th the 20th Anniversary Edition?

[uber pye]

I am also interested, though I've not yet played Shadowrun.

EDIT: Is 4th the 20th Anniversary Edition?

yes

[Girlinhat]

Huh.  I remember Arsenal being pretty good, but I don't have a copy readily available to check.  I thought weapons were organized by category, mostly with illustrations at the top of the page.  Riffles would be with other riffles, grenade launchers with other grenade launchers, vehicle weapons all together in one place.

What you say does remind me how vague vehicles got.  You had to really dig through both the description as well as the generall guidelines given in the SR4 book for the size class to get an idea of how big something was.  There actually ARE rules for passenger capacity for each vehicle class, but they are buried somewhere and you have to cross reference a bunch of things.

A good example of this vagueness is that -- and this is from memory -- a small drone is somewhere between the size of a toaster and a mediumish dog.  These are VASTLY different sizes, but the capacity for what you can slap in one is the same.

While this seems overly simple and vague, it played MUCH better than SR 2&3 which had these vehicle construction rules that were possibly more complicated than SJG's Car Wars.  Gives you some basic limitations on what something can do, but allows you some freedom to tweak as you see fit.

Anyway, 4 is a pretty good edition, I'm sure you'll have fun.

Yeah, that's what I mean.  I'll fiddle with the rules a bit and just say, somewhat arbitrarily at times, what size things are and if they'll fit, and apply other modifiers, like you CAN fit that gun onto a medium drone, but it'll suffer speed and recoil which the rules don't mention.

i remember there being a occupancy limit table some where 

or mabye we just assumed that the 7 runner party could fit in a sedan if the decker got shoved in the trunk/decker-cocoon

What if three of the runners are trolls?

I am also interested, though I've not yet played Shadowrun.

EDIT: Is 4th the 20th Anniversary Edition?

4th is going to be my starting point, but I'm essentially open to all manner of "the books don't say this but it should be possible..." and I'll add some type of custom price increase or whatnot to make it somewhat balanced.  I'm more about having fun here within the realm of realism than following the rules as written.

[uber pye]

i remember there being a occupancy limit table some where 

or mabye we just assumed that the 7 runner party could fit in a sedan if the decker got shoved in the trunk/decker-cocoon

What if three of the runners are trolls?

well troll take up the space of two people, so you'll need a bigger car