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[UXLZ]

a standardized, presumably multiple-choice, exam. I don't know about you, but I'm terrified by the idea of a world in which your SAT scores follow you for the rest of your life.

Multiple choice? I haven't seen one of those in any serious study since I was in my mid-teens. We certainly don't have any multiple choice questions in the senior highschool exams in Australia. Everything is written answers. Multiple choice is for monkey's, not a serious education system. If you've got multiple choice questions in your graduation process, then that's indicative of part of the problem. Spoon-feeding answers isn't testing your education.

Tells you a lot about American education, doesn't it?

Errr... We do have MC questions on our end-of-year exams... At least in Victoria. I don't think everything has it, though.

[Frumple]

Multiple choice? I haven't seen one of those in any serious study since I was in my mid-teens. We certainly don't have any multiple choice questions in the senior highschool exams in Australia. Everything is written answers. Multiple choice is for monkey's, not a serious education system. If you've got multiple choice questions in your graduation process, then that's indicative of part of the problem. Spoon-feeding answers isn't testing your education.

Hey, want to know one of the major driving forces behind the florida school system's overuse of MC questions? Jeb fucking Bush. Who was one of the major driving forces behind rendering local public school teachers goddamn incapable of doing their fucking job, because the administrative bullshit heaped upon them and the massive FCAT schlong shoved down their throat, all the while rendering them less and less capable of taking time to actually bloody teach anything? Jeb Get-Buggered-With-A-Cactus Bush. There's a litany of similar shit with Jeb's goddamn name behind it stuffing splintery pieces of wood into every orifice florida's public schools had.

Funding cuts were just shit sprinkles on top of the decaying corpse sundae that bastard gave every intention of wanting to turn the florida education system in to.

Jeb is what you look at if you want a grade A example of how to do just about everything in your fucking power to ruin a school system. Bloody hell, even the charter schools in this freaking state started getting worse when that slag shoved his bullshit into us.

... note, most of that wasn't really aimed precisely at you, Ree. Just the evident notion that piece of shit is anything even remotely good in regards to education. I've said it once, and I'll say it again: That bastard gets elected as POTUS and every school in the goddamn country will spontaneously combust.

E: It's... look, normally I'd be a bit more respectful, but with the extent that my family is involved in the education system, I've seen the stuff Jeb directly spearheaded and what has occurred because of that literally ruin lives, to say nothing of what it's done to whole freaking swathes of floridians' futures. When it comes to education, there is no respect to be given and an incredible amount of scorn to be heaped.

[Reelya]

I'd... actually be largely on board with that, if it were practical. As it stands, variation means that the standardized tests would still need local segments to cover whatever effects ordinances and/or state laws have impacts on civil duties, living expenses, and whatever else you need people to know about government and finances (and those are just the topics that come to mind immediately). Moreover, you're making a strong connection between somebody's employment future and a standardized, presumably multiple-choice, exam. I don't know about you, but I'm terrified by the idea of a world in which your SAT scores follow you for the rest of your life.

You're not understand here the concepts of modules and unit competencies. A module isn't a monolithic thing like the SAT exams, it's like a specific domain of study, e.g. a specific type of calculus would be a unit competency. and "competencies" don't have scores, they have grades (like pass, credit, distinction), and you can upgrade them any time by taking just that one class again. They're handled very differently to SAT scores, it's expected for you to update competencies over your lifetime.

Such a system also makes it easy for local needs to be incorporated into modules, e.g. a module "Civics I" could explicitly state that it includes a local component, so not everyone doing that needs to be doing identical material. With such a system you would have a portfolio of completed units and this would be matched against the entry requirements of specific courses and jobs. Also, by breaking down things into modules you can make it easier for people to learn at their own pace or to fill in gaps later on without having to do the entire SATs again.

The modular approach is also more flexible and can support high-achievers (pick up additional e.g. math-related modules while still doing the core stuff in-class and get a head-start on a degree), and struggling students (be held back in just one area of study, or drop 1 subject you're having trouble with, without screwing your whole year), but can still be delivered in-class with traditional teaching methods when those work best.

[Bauglir]

I do get "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" - I just doubt that such a change would actually solve anything. At least with the US system I'm familiar with, it would only magnify the problems already present in standardized testing. You'd have to overhaul the entire culture of the educational system away from the emphasis on credentials over knowledge and skills, which would be great, but if you do that then diplomas already do what you want the tests to do. It's just aesthetics.

You're burying the actual problem in one of your solution's assumptions - that the tests could be constructed as you envision. But if you can make such tests, you can apply exactly the same systemic changes to the diploma system, and get the same problem-solving ability.

For example, to Reelya, I'd reply "And you don't understand how an even greater emphasis on standardized testing would be implemented by American bureaucracy." To which the reply would no doubt be, "We're talking about an ideal to aim for here," or something of that nature, which is fair enough. But the problem is that the ideal testing environment solves exactly no problems that the ideal diploma environment solves. Modularity? Diplomas do that. Flexible schedules? That's a practical issue with the way universities are run, not with the fundamental system. They've got grades, too, although I'll note that FJ's original proposition did involve numerical scores.

You're comparing your dream to mundane reality. Of course your dream's going to look better. But we can solve the same problems without drastically overhauling the thing and throwing out the advantages diplomas offer (notably, spreading the workload, both on the student and the graders, to avoid the pinpoint stress that's rare in the workforce, and increased flexibility in what counts for credit through independent studies and that sort of thing). There's nothing about the testing ideal that's better than the diploma ideal, save that the testing one seems novel and you're confronted with the drab reality of the diploma ideal's failure.

[Reelya]

a standardized, presumably multiple-choice, exam. I don't know about you, but I'm terrified by the idea of a world in which your SAT scores follow you for the rest of your life.

Multiple choice? I haven't seen one of those in any serious study since I was in my mid-teens. We certainly don't have any multiple choice questions in the senior highschool exams in Australia. Everything is written answers. Multiple choice is for monkey's, not a serious education system. If you've got multiple choice questions in your graduation process, then that's indicative of part of the problem. Spoon-feeding answers isn't testing your education.

Tells you a lot about American education, doesn't it?

Errr... We do have MC questions on our end-of-year exams... At least in Victoria. I don't think everything has it, though.

End of year exams are normally administred by the school, right? I'm talking about the ones for college placement like the HSC in NSW. End of year exams aren't normally something that impacts you down the track, they for the school to assess how you're doing. The state education boards don't determine how every internal test is applied.

[smjjames]

As far as the tenure stuff, yeah I agree that has gotta go, in the college system too. While the use of ratemyprofessor.com has allowed me to avoid the worst professors, I've seen some listed on there who are so horrible that I wondered why the hell they weren't fired already. The answer? They're on tenure, so the community college CAN'T fire them even if they wanted to, short of the professor commiting a crime or something that breaks the contract.

[UXLZ]

a standardized, presumably multiple-choice, exam. I don't know about you, but I'm terrified by the idea of a world in which your SAT scores follow you for the rest of your life.

Multiple choice? I haven't seen one of those in any serious study since I was in my mid-teens. We certainly don't have any multiple choice questions in the senior highschool exams in Australia. Everything is written answers. Multiple choice is for monkey's, not a serious education system. If you've got multiple choice questions in your graduation process, then that's indicative of part of the problem. Spoon-feeding answers isn't testing your education.

Tells you a lot about American education, doesn't it?

Errr... We do have MC questions on our end-of-year exams... At least in Victoria. I don't think everything has it, though.

End of year exams are normally administred by the school, right? I'm talking about the ones for college placement like the HSC in NSW. End of year exams aren't normally something that impacts you down the track, they for the school to assess how you're doing. The state education boards don't determine how every internal test is applied.

No, they aren't admistered by the school. These are the Y12 exams, they're designed by VCAA, administered by hired examiners from out of the school, and heavily impact your end of year ATAR/enter score.

[Descan]

PTW

[scriver]

Posting To Descan.