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Author Topic: Education Reform Thread  (Read 9096 times)

Frumple

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Education Reform Thread
« on: January 24, 2015, 06:24:59 pm »

... how in the hell is jeb noted positively on the education front? Basically the entire public school system in florida hates the bastid.

And I mean, shit, all of it. North, south, central -- during the period Jeb was around, not a single teacher I'd been in contact with, nor any they had been in contact with (which, overall, would count in the many multiple hundreds from pretty much all over the state) had basically anything positive to say about the guy. Bugger straight sodomized the florida school system.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 06:28:51 pm by Frumple »
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Education Reform Thread
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2015, 06:49:44 pm »

I'm sympathetic to the Republican approach to education reform, for several reasons. (To a certain extent! Local control is a good thing if it means hiring good teachers and letting them run the show, but all too often it means handing over decisions on curricula to soccer moms and busybodies with an agenda.)

There are a lot of areas that have gotten shafted by the public school system. In many cases, charters that have come into the area do way, way better with the students they get than the public schools did before them. We can't ax charters. They have potential.

Moreover, tenure is an import from higher academia that's supposed to protect profs from being fired do to research. High school teachers don't generally do research, and tenure shields a lot of bad teachers.

To cap it all off, a high school diploma is really nearly worthless these days, and that's a problem. There are kids who don't know anything coming out of some schools- I took a community college class this summer to knock out a Biology gen ed requirement, and had a classmate who thought that the reason things float was that gravity doesn't operate in water. And she had graduated high school! There's a reason high school diplomas aren't worth anything anymore- they don't give any real indication that you know, well, anything. In many school districts they're pretty much a certificate that says that someone got to the age of 18 without having a child or becoming a drug addict.

Finally, the best schools in the country don't have either tenure or teacher's unions- boarding schools, especially on the coasts. They often pay their teachers less than some public school districts, and almost none of their teachers have education certifications, which suggests to me that the whole education certification system could be done away with wholesale. Hire people with degrees in the fields they're supposed to teach, which would also do away with biology teachers who are creationists and that sort of twaddle. I've met a Spanish teacher from a good district who didn't speak any Spanish and showed her kids videos all day. She needs to be let go.

I agree that many schools are underfunded and could use a funding boost- the property-tax model of school funding, IMO, is outdated, as is the running-for-school-board model- but they also waste a lot of the funding they get, on nonsense like iPads and administration salaries.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 06:55:39 pm by FearfulJesuit »
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Reelya

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Re: Education Reform Thread
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2015, 06:52:02 pm »

That's probably a plus according to conservatives. A lot of them would like to abolish public schools altogether and force everyone to homeschool or go private. And they claim to be the ones who "love" America? What a joke. Abolishing education would be the final nail in the coffin. The USA would end up with lower literacy rates than parts of Africa.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 06:54:25 pm by Reelya »
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Helgoland

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Re: Education Reform Thread
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2015, 07:11:27 pm »

the property-tax model of school funding, IMO, is outdated
This is the core mistake of the American school system. Most other reforms do a little good or fuck up the system a little, but property tax-funding ensures that economic inequality remains highly inheritable.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Education Reform Thread
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2015, 07:20:53 pm »

the property-tax model of school funding, IMO, is outdated
This is the core mistake of the American school system. Most other reforms do a little good or fuck up the system a little, but property tax-funding ensures that economic inequality remains highly inheritable.

The lack of a national curriculum is also an issue.

Ideally poor districts would get the most funding while rich districts would get less funding, because in rich districts it's more realistic to assume that parents are doing more work with regards to their kids' education- making sure there are a lot of books in the house and so on and so forth. I'm not sure many people could be persuaded to vote for an inverse-taxation scheme like that, though.

If I were suddenly handed control of the nation's schools, I'd probably have a few other major proposals, but they'd likely be even less popular.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 07:23:04 pm by FearfulJesuit »
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Helgoland

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Re: Education Reform Thread
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2015, 07:35:29 pm »

Like what?
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Education Reform Thread
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2015, 08:12:20 pm »

[EDIT: This is one hell of a wall of text. I'm starting an education reform thread and moving it there.]

Tracking works. It works in Germany, it works in the UK, it works in Japan. Shoving everyone into one classroom regardless of ability keeps the smart kids back and keeps the kids who need extra help from getting it.

The problem is, kids from the top of the social ladder grow up in an environment that's conducive to the development of academic intelligence, and kids from the bottom of it don't. So instead, track by income group.

Suppose you were going to just take the top third of kids based on their test scores at age 10 or 11. You'd probably find that 60% or more of the top third were from the top third of the income tier, maybe 30% from the middle tier and 10% from the bottom. You'll have too many rich kids whose parents dogged them into prep courses, and too many poor kids who won't get in because of their home situations. Instead, divide kids into three groups based on their parents' income, and take the top third from each group: a third rich smart kids, a third middle-class smart kids and a third poor smart kids. Etc., etc.

One downside would be that competition among upper-class parents would be absolutely brutal. But it already is, and this is a much better system than the de facto one we have now, which tracks kids according to the price of their parents' house.

Then we come to the next big hurdle for poor kids trying to study their way up the social ladder: college degrees have unbelievably high price tags in the States, and because they're so important (because, as noted in my previous post, high school diplomas are watered down) it's become easier and easier to get college degrees, often with a not-very-high workload, from mediocre schools. Beyond those, there's also the crop of for-profit schools like DeVry and Phoenix that have popped up in the past decade that have huge price tags, very little rigor whatsoever and negative earnings potential (in other words, their degrees cost so much and mean so little that you're better off without them).

We're seeing a process here in which credentials are increasingly divorced from education. American society is obsessed with credentials, but it's not, I don't think, very concerned about education. As a result, credentials are becoming increasingly more expensive (because there's a market for them) but less meaningful (because everyone has to have them even if they don't really have the skills to obtain the education that should back them). When a credential requires no money and next to no effort to get, like high school diplomas, it becomes devalued. When it requires lots of money and not much effort to get, which is increasingly the case with bachelors' degrees, it becomes devalued AND sets people back financially.

I think the secret here is exit exams. What do high schoolers need to know? We'd probably want them to be able to read, write, analyze what they read, do basic math and probably a bit of stats, have a good grasp of real-world science, know how their government works, know enough history and geography to comprehend current events, maybe have a decent reading grasp of a foreign language- we can continue a list of academic skills here, if we need to, and it might be wise to add real-world skills like balancing a checkbook and doing taxes.

This shouldn't be a terribly high bar. It's a higher bar than exists in many districts, and there are a lot of high-school (and some college!) graduates who wouldn't be able to pass a test like this at this moment. This is actually OK, because people respond to incentives. Even complete knuckleheads are going to start studying if a high school diploma actually requires it. It'll also restore some actual value to a high school diploma- middle-skilled jobs like book-keeping might no longer require degrees.

Some people still won't be able to pass a test like this. But the secret here is to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. This would create a better system than what currently exists.

We can apply the same trick to colleges, too. Decide what a college grad needs to know in terms of academic skills, which would be a more advanced version of the high school list, then ask actual PhDs in a given field what they think undergraduates need to know to have a BA's worth of knowledge and analysis. Then create college exit exams on the same basis. (Grad school is so specialized I don't think exit exams would be needed.)

Now, here's the trick.

a) A high score on an exit exam isn't just the last hoop you have to jump through on your way out the door of undergraduate. For all legal intents and purposes, it's the only hoop. Instead of listing their institution and degree on their résumé, job seekers would just list their score on the standardized undergraduate exit exam. Anyone can take this exam. If you're dirt-poor but have a passion for history, you don't need to borrow thousands of dollars of student loans to have a BA in history. You can work during the day, study in the library at night, ace an exam with a $30 administration fee, and have a history score that is, in the eyes of the law and your employer, as good as any other.

b) Undergraduate is still one of the country's most valuable institutions, so you can't get rid of it. Instead, make sure schools are on the hook when they graduate students who don't know anything. You could do college entrance exams with fully-funded universities, and lord knows I'd like to do it that way- but, and this really is not the case in any other country, the US has many top-notch private universities that shouldn't be nationalized. They can't live off their endowments in all cases, so they need student loan money. Instead of nationalizing them all, do something like this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

c) Apply the "no listing your institution and degree" rule to everyone, not just new grads- if you want to go job-searching, you'll have a test to take. (Don't enforce it for current workers who want to keep their job- that's asinine.) This is going to create a lot of upheaval in the labor market when it's first enforced, unfortunately. However, it would mean that an average American who got a degree in Exercise Studies twenty years ago would have to go to the library to maintain his degree status. People will adjust, and they'll adjust by making sure they're well-educated and not falling behind. Is that really so bad?

In the end, the value of a high school diploma rises, the value of a college degree rises, and fewer people are stuck with unpayable student debt. Winners all around, except for unrigorous colleges. Someone has to be the fall guy- it may as well be them.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 08:21:52 pm by FearfulJesuit »
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Education Reform Thread
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2015, 08:22:18 pm »

Pruned from the US Politics thread, because I've started spouting walls of text. Only Toady can move posts from one thread to another, right?

[I'm just going to quote all the existing posts starting with Frumple's post on Jeb Bush, and ask Toad to move 'em later.]

... how in the hell is jeb noted positively on the education front? Basically the entire public school system in florida hates the bastid.

And I mean, shit, all of it. North, south, central -- during the period Jeb was around, not a single teacher I'd been in contact with, nor any they had been in contact with (which, overall, would count in the many multiple hundreds from pretty much all over the state) had basically anything positive to say about the guy. Bugger straight sodomized the florida school system.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That's probably a plus according to conservatives. A lot of them would like to abolish public schools altogether and force everyone to homeschool or go private. And they claim to be the ones who "love" America? What a joke. Abolishing education would be the final nail in the coffin. The USA would end up with lower literacy rates than parts of Africa.

the property-tax model of school funding, IMO, is outdated
This is the core mistake of the American school system. Most other reforms do a little good or fuck up the system a little, but property tax-funding ensures that economic inequality remains highly inheritable.

the property-tax model of school funding, IMO, is outdated
This is the core mistake of the American school system. Most other reforms do a little good or fuck up the system a little, but property tax-funding ensures that economic inequality remains highly inheritable.

The lack of a national curriculum is also an issue.

Ideally poor districts would get the most funding while rich districts would get less funding, because in rich districts it's more realistic to assume that parents are doing more work with regards to their kids' education- making sure there are a lot of books in the house and so on and so forth. I'm not sure many people could be persuaded to vote for an inverse-taxation scheme like that, though.

If I were suddenly handed control of the nation's schools, I'd probably have a few other major proposals, but they'd likely be even less popular.

Like what?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 08:29:21 pm by FearfulJesuit »
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

Reelya

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Re: Education Reform Thread
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2015, 08:44:11 pm »

When talking about vocational qualifications (book-keeping etc) it might be a good idea to break down highschool level stuff into modules which are compatible with what you do in the "real" world. Unit Competencies and the like. Break down the monolithic concept of a highschool diploma, modularize it and make it blend seamlessly into the job qualifications system, but also the unit competencies used in college. Effectively there could be a modular system which starts when you're 16 and goes into your working life and/or further education. The first 10 years of education can be the general stuff (but pack more science in there). This would help integrate both job competencies and higher education, and starting at 16 would ensure everyone has a good grasp of the system and starts with a number of completed units.

A full 3+ year specialized college education isn't needed for everyone, and there shouldn't be a thing where you graduate highschool, you're only good for McDonalds or something, and you need to waste another 3 years getting a piece of paper to get a start in anything else.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 08:49:12 pm by Reelya »
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Bauglir

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Re: Education Reform Thread
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2015, 08:58:40 pm »

I'd... actually be largely on board with that, if it were practical. As it stands, variation means that the standardized tests would still need local segments to cover whatever effects ordinances and/or state laws have impacts on civil duties, living expenses, and whatever else you need people to know about government and finances (and those are just the topics that come to mind immediately). Moreover, you're making a strong connection between somebody's employment future and a standardized, presumably multiple-choice, exam. I don't know about you, but I'm terrified by the idea of a world in which your SAT scores follow you for the rest of your life.

Even if the test is fair, competently-written, adequately generalized, can be retaken at-will with a waiver for fees in case of financial need, and you manage to include a measure of nuance by getting out of multiple-choice-land without violating the fairness premise, you still have the problem that some people are just amazing at exams, and some aren't. People have anxiety issues with exams that only crop up in the workforce when their performance review comes along, for example. Exams aren't necessarily a good proxy for competence. This is certainly already a problem with the state of college and graduate school admissions, but the universal test you're talking about magnifies that to a degree I can't really accept.

I'm actually pretty well on board with everything else in your post, especially the student loan mechanics (if we have to live in a world where you can't just sign up for classes and not even worry about the finances, anyway). I also generally agree with any plan that reduces the extent to which a degree is expected by society - even if the education were free, the time commitment is worth letting people consider without being told that "It's just what you do". The exam thing, though, is just a little too idealistic - it would wind up another form of credential, and subtly shifts all the problems we already face onto exams that are assumed to be plausible.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Education Reform Thread
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2015, 09:21:51 pm »

I'd... actually be largely on board with that, if it were practical. As it stands, variation means that the standardized tests would still need local segments to cover whatever effects ordinances and/or state laws have impacts on civil duties, living expenses, and whatever else you need people to know about government and finances (and those are just the topics that come to mind immediately). Moreover, you're making a strong connection between somebody's employment future and a standardized, presumably multiple-choice, exam. I don't know about you, but I'm terrified by the idea of a world in which your SAT scores follow you for the rest of your life.

Even if the test is fair, competently-written, adequately generalized, can be retaken at-will with a waiver for fees in case of financial need, and you manage to include a measure of nuance by getting out of multiple-choice-land without violating the fairness premise, you still have the problem that some people are just amazing at exams, and some aren't. People have anxiety issues with exams that only crop up in the workforce when their performance review comes along, for example. Exams aren't necessarily a good proxy for competence. This is certainly already a problem with the state of college and graduate school admissions, but the universal test you're talking about magnifies that to a degree I can't really accept.

I'm actually pretty well on board with everything else in your post, especially the student loan mechanics (if we have to live in a world where you can't just sign up for classes and not even worry about the finances, anyway). I also generally agree with any plan that reduces the extent to which a degree is expected by society - even if the education were free, the time commitment is worth letting people consider without being told that "It's just what you do". The exam thing, though, is just a little too idealistic - it would wind up another form of credential, and subtly shifts all the problems we already face onto exams that are assumed to be plausible.
`

There's still a place for credentials. The question is, though: what do credentials measure? Currently, a college degree is a better measurement of economic and cultural class than it is of how well-educated you are, except from top-tier institutions- it's a dishonest credential. If a college degree were a measurement of someone's talent to do college-level work, it would be an honest credential. What we're looking to do here isn't to get rid of credentials but to make them mean what they say they mean.

No PhD worth their salt would design an undergraduate exit exam composed merely of multiple-choice questions. School districts like multiple-choice questions because they're easy and cheap to grade. But a history undergraduate knows how to write a good, in-depth analysis of a complex and nuanced situation. When you take that exam, you'll have to write a few papers- if you can think like a history undergraduate, you can write like one, and the historian who grades you will have a much better grasp of whether you really know the subject than a scantron does. (There's debate about this in K-12 educational circles, actually. A small but vocal minority is advocating shelling out more for standardized test administration so that questions other than multiple-choice can be the norm.)

It's true that there are people who just don't test very well. You might be able to find alternate systems for them, but, unfortunately, exams really do tell you a lot about how much a person knows, if well-designed, and most alternatives don't- unless they're exams in costume, like interviews. Unfortunately, any society is going to have skills it values and skills it doesn't, and often there are professions that play that down. You want to have good social skills in America- but if you're a software developer it's not as important. You want to have good grades...but there are plenty of businesses that are more focused on people skills. There might be good career alternatives for people with test anxiety. I hope there are!

Again, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Modern society is built on writing, for example- literacy is arguably the most important skill to have in modern society. The flip side of this is that modern society pretty much stacks all the chips against dyslexics. This sucks, and it's important to have systems in place to make sure dyslexics can succeed. But society is always going to be literacy-driven, because the benefits outweigh the costs, so dyslexics are always going to have an uphill battle. (Who knows? Maybe giving everyone an anti-anxiety pill before The Big Test would help.)

Also, no, exams aren't a proxy for competence...but degrees aren't really a proxy for competence either. Degrees as employers use them right now are essentially a proxy for work ethic, analytical skills and ability to learn- and I think a degree-exam of this sort can tell us pretty much the same things. If an employer wants to figure out if a potential hire is competent at a specific given skill-set (unless the degree is in the job itself, the way vocational degrees are set up), he needs to make sure his hiring process screens for it.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 09:27:01 pm by FearfulJesuit »
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LuckyKobold

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Re: Education Reform Thread
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2015, 09:25:59 pm »

Either Way this is Probably going to result in some more Riots.

Reelya

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Re: Education Reform Thread
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2015, 09:35:14 pm »

a standardized, presumably multiple-choice, exam. I don't know about you, but I'm terrified by the idea of a world in which your SAT scores follow you for the rest of your life.

Multiple choice? I haven't seen one of those in any serious study since I was in my mid-teens. We certainly don't have any multiple choice questions in the senior highschool exams in Australia. Everything is written answers. Multiple choice is for monkey's, not a serious education system. If you've got multiple choice questions in your graduation process, then that's indicative of part of the problem. Spoon-feeding answers isn't testing your education.

You can have multiple choice in-class quizzes for teachers to get quick feedback about who is absorbing the information but they should never be part of your formal examinations.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 09:38:31 pm by Reelya »
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Sindain

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Re: Education Reform Thread
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2015, 09:37:53 pm »

a standardized, presumably multiple-choice, exam. I don't know about you, but I'm terrified by the idea of a world in which your SAT scores follow you for the rest of your life.

Multiple choice? I haven't seen one of those in any serious study since I was in my mid-teens. We certainly don't have any multiple choice questions in the senior highschool exams in Australia. Those are for monkey's, not a serious education system.

Not sure about the SAT but I know the ACT is mostly in multiple choice here in 'Murica. The ACT and SAT are our two big end of high school standardized tests.
Though I agree, multiple choice questions are terrible.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Education Reform Thread
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2015, 09:37:58 pm »

a standardized, presumably multiple-choice, exam. I don't know about you, but I'm terrified by the idea of a world in which your SAT scores follow you for the rest of your life.

Multiple choice? I haven't seen one of those in any serious study since I was in my mid-teens. We certainly don't have any multiple choice questions in the senior highschool exams in Australia. Everything is written answers. Multiple choice is for monkey's, not a serious education system. If you've got multiple choice questions in your graduation process, then that's indicative of part of the problem. Spoon-feeding answers isn't testing your education.

Tells you a lot about American education, doesn't it?
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.
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