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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Criptfeind]

Oh, yes. I see what you mean.

God being evil seems like a given to me no matter how the universe is though, so I guess I still don't see the problem.

Edit: Maybe an overly flippant response. I suppose it's the classic problem of evil, if you think you have any acceptable answer to that, could you apply said hypothetical of it as gods answer to why it'd be okay to torture people in a deterministic universe? I think you maybe could, in certain configurations of answers at least?

[Great Order]

Ah yes, one of the quotes that's been running around my head for a while now.

I was walking along the bank of a stream when I saw a mother otter with her cubs, a very endearing sight, I'm sure you'll agree. And even as I watched, the mother otter dived into the water and came up with a plump salmon, which she subdued and dragged onto a half submerged log. As she ate it, while of course it was still alive, the body split and I remember to this day the sweet pinkness of its roes as they spilled out, much to the delight of the baby otters, who scrambled over themselves to feed on the delicacy. One of nature's wonders, gentlemen. Mother and children dining upon mother and children. And that is when I first learned about evil. It is built into the very nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being, I told myself, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior

[McTraveller]

I think the idea is we have practical culpability in a non-free-will worldview, not necessarily existential culpability. It's unclear if there even is such a thing as existential culpability in a worldview without something super-physical like spirit/deity.

[MaxTheFox]

Obviously we can't know, yeah. But I tend to take the assumptions that lead me to the most sensical courses of actions. Full determinism leads to jank like nobody's misdeeds ever being their fault, strictly speaking, and that just feels absurd so I don't take that.

I also don't believe there is a single timeline or a single future. In fact I believe the future is well and truly uncomputable.

The world just makes a bit more sense with free will imho.

Can you explain the mechanism by which non-determinism leads to culpability? What makes much more sense to me is that everyone is culpable for their own choices and the determinism or non-determinism of the universe is irrelevant to that. If you choose to do evil, it doesn't matter that you're deterministic, since you still are the deterministic process which lead to the decision to do evil.

Because then it's your actions. Assuming the ensouled kind of non-determinism as opposed to the random kind of non-determinism.

I mean, punishing people for their actions probably should be done anyway in a deterministic universe, as it would be like destroying or isolating a murderous robot. But it just feels wrong and I see no benefit for holding that belief.

Just for the record as a Christian I believe in souls as the explanation for subjectivity... i.e why do you see through your eyes. But I also believe the soul is an emergent phenomenon caused by a feedback loop of cognition, and not really separable from the brain. fyi

[Great Order]

OK, I don't get the difference there. It sounds like you're literally defining the soul as your cumulative cognition, being an emergent physical phenomenon rather than metaphysical. Which is just... physical consciousness?

I must be missing something.

[Criptfeind]

I mean, punishing people for their actions probably should be done anyway in a deterministic universe, as it would be like destroying or isolating a murderous robot. But it just feels wrong and I see no benefit for holding that belief.

I'd like to propose that the benefit for a belief system that includes a deterministic universe is it more encourages an objective look at what system of incentives and disincentives can be put in place to benefit society the most. If punishments for actions that don't actually help but just feel good in the short term are themselves nonsensical because of a lack true culpability on anyones parts, we're incentivized to do the things that actually help people and society more. Which, I believe at least, are what we should be doing. A belief that we should be doing things to help society instead of punishment for punishments sake isn't unique to the belief in a deterministic universe, but I do think it's the natural conclusion in that belief system, with a belief in souls and non-determinism muddy the waters a lot.

[MaxTheFox]

OK, I don't get the difference there. It sounds like you're literally defining the soul as your cumulative cognition, being an emergent physical phenomenon rather than metaphysical. Which is just... physical consciousness?

I must be missing something.

The metaphysical part is that it is what makes decisions as opposed to quantum randomness or simple stimuli. And what makes you perceive the world through your senses and not someone else's. I dunno how to explain it better. It to me is more an answer to the question of "why am I me and not someone else".

I mean, punishing people for their actions probably should be done anyway in a deterministic universe, as it would be like destroying or isolating a murderous robot. But it just feels wrong and I see no benefit for holding that belief.

I'd like to propose that the benefit for a belief system that includes a deterministic universe is it more encourages an objective look at what system of incentives and disincentives can be put in place to benefit society the most. If punishments for actions that don't actually help but just feel good in the short term are themselves nonsensical because of a lack true culpability on anyones parts, we're incentivized to do the things that actually help people and society more. Which, I believe at least, are what we should be doing. A belief that we should be doing things to help society instead of punishment for punishments sake isn't unique to the belief in a deterministic universe, but I do think it's the natural conclusion in that belief system, with a belief in souls and non-determinism muddy the waters a lot.

Counterpoint: you can still make these decisions in a probabilistic universe. Just because the world is random does not mean there aren't statistical patterns. And one such pattern is that rehabilitative justice tends to be better at actually preventing crime than punitive justice so I support it.

And strict determinism, in my experience, tends to lead to overly simplistic worldviews that do not account for sudden windfalls or human error. Not always but it is an easy trap to fall into.

[Criptfeind]

I already replied to that counterpoint as the last sentence in my paragraph.

To I suppose cut to the chase a bit to where I'd assume this goes next, my proposed benefit for the belief system is more in the context of it being beneficial on the scale of a whole society and my own inability to sufficiently doublethink and advocate for a belief system I do not personally believe in, that might not apply to you, and if so you might not see any benefit personally from the belief system. So if we're just talking about you personally and only you, my arguments may not even slightly apply.

Edit in response to edit: I don't see how a belief in determinism logically flows to a simplistic worldview and failure to account for minutia by itself. That said, with non-determinism and the existence of free will and soul being the somewhat default assumption in society that people generally frame their beliefs on, that does tend to leave a belief in and advocacy for determinism to dumb internet pseudo intellectuals (like me!) who certainly do have those issues, so it's a understandable statement and fear. I don't really have a great argument against it other then saying I can't seriously see it being issue caused by a belief in determinism if determinism was actually a default societal belief. I do think that those would still be problems, just as they are currently problems, just not that they'd come from the philosophy specifically. I think the opposite couldn't be said about the belief in a soul, for example, which does seem to be causing many anti-social behaviors in society currently, although of course it's pretty much impossible for separate people who take anti-social actions because of a belief in a soul from people who take anti-social actions and then justify it with a belief in a soul.