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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 660491 times)

Strongpoint

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7740 on: December 30, 2023, 02:10:28 am »

Eh. I'd say that any ideology can be used to promote violence if someone's fallen deep enough into the trap of promoting said ideology at any cost. "We will show them our peaceful ways, by force!"
Well... nope.

Pacifism can't be used for that. You can twist it and start killing in the name of non-violence but it will be pseudopacifism and every actual pacifist will denounce that pacifist, don't call them extremist pacifists. An extremist pacifist will be someone refusing to use violence even when it is justified and necessary.

It is like very very extremist vegan may go as far as start killing meat-eaters but if a vegan will start killing other people pet's and eat them raw - no sane person will call this kind of behavior extremist veganism. It goes against the core of what veganism is.

But they do when a religion that proclaims love, mercy and forgiveness as its core values goes around murdering people. Do you know why? Because those are not core values. They are secondary, at best.

There are actual pacifist religions, but neither mainstream Christianity nor mainstream Islam qualifies.  The core idea of both is "Humanity must embrace the Lord\Allah". Naturally, the extremist version of this justifies making it happen by force, using forced conversion or outright murdering people who believe differently.
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Frumple

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7741 on: December 30, 2023, 10:25:58 am »

There are actual pacifist religions, but neither mainstream Christianity nor mainstream Islam qualifies.
Somewhat depressingly, there are, and the few times they've actually managed to obtain significant secular influence, the cultural groups they presided over still indulged in proselytizing by the sword.

Success of any meaningful degree is just kinda' poison to whatever ethical strictures any religion claims, pacifist or not. S'one of the reasons I'm pretty staunchly irreligious, organization in general is just persistently corruptive towards spiritual practice.

Better that folks not, keep that shit personal and out of the driver's seat for pretty much any sort of decision making. It won't guarantee things get better, but the alternative has quite consistently made things worse.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7742 on: December 31, 2023, 07:49:45 am »

Somewhat depressingly, there are, and the few times they've actually managed to obtain significant secular influence, the cultural groups they presided over still indulged in proselytizing by the sword.

Success of any meaningful degree is just kinda' poison to whatever ethical strictures any religion claims, pacifist or not. S'one of the reasons I'm pretty staunchly irreligious, organization in general is just persistently corruptive towards spiritual practice.
Jains might get the golden trophy for being a major religion that managed to survive thousands of years without abandoning pacifism. Also can't think of a religion that makes non-violence as integral to being a member of the religion as jainism. I grew up with a jainist in my school, super cool dude, never ate meat though which I think he should've as a kid as it stunted his growth. But yeah you could be a violent jain but then you'd not really be a jain then would you? It'd be like a Christian who says they don't believe in Christ. There were also the Moriori, who ardently held onto their pacifistic faith until the very end even though they had the ability to fight back. But it also does kinda painfully illustrate why it's so rare for a truly pacifistic religion to not get wiped out by the first secular or religious power to wield the sword

Frumple

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7743 on: December 31, 2023, 08:36:43 am »

Jainism was actually one of the ones I was referring to in that first sentence :-\

Forget exactly which one it is, and it's entirely too early to do the research to remind myself, but one of the few times it actually ended up as a more-or-less state religion, said state was still violently expansionist and spread jainism (among other things) by the sword.

Religious organization, especially when it interacts with secular influence of substantial note... it's just a pox on spiritual beliefs. Consistently, all throughout history. There's just some point at which it'll go wrong, more or less every time. It's possible (if not likely) to avoid that when there's, like, not very many people involved (e.g. the moriori you mention), but once there's a sort of critical mass it's going to go bad on some (or many) level(s). Cultural dominance is poison for faith.

Greatest trick the metaphorical devil ever pulled was to convince people they need a book, a priest, and a second opinion to know the divine, heh. If I actually believed in the existence of a god worth worshiping, I'd call it a really goddamn blatant sign of what people shouldn't be doing. When shit fucks up more or less every single time folks do something, maybe that's god telling folks they shouldn't be doing it, y'know?
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MaxTheFox

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7744 on: December 31, 2023, 11:44:31 am »

If there was a liberal (ish) Protestant church anywhere near where I lived, I'd participate in organized religion. But as is, nope.

Maybe Frumple is right, maybe it's for the best.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7745 on: December 31, 2023, 12:42:58 pm »

Jainism was actually one of the ones I was referring to in that first sentence :-\

Forget exactly which one it is, and it's entirely too early to do the research to remind myself, but one of the few times it actually ended up as a more-or-less state religion, said state was still violently expansionist and spread jainism (among other things) by the sword.
IIRC Jainism is one of the few that didn't do this. The only thing I can think that comes close is Emperor Chandragupta or Emperor Ashoka of the Mauryan Empire. Chandragupta became a jain, but under his reign all religions were respected, even hellenic and zoroastrians. Ashoka was reputed to be a cruel and vicious warlord, who converted to Buddhism and gave up his warlike ways. Because he then instituted a state religion based around stuff like dharma and ahimsa, which dharmic religions tend to all have in common like buddhism, hinduism and jainism. Given the amount of overlap sometimes I wonder if the distinctions between the dharmic faiths even make sense, if they're just a practical consideration conjured up for legal census and identity reasons. It is very strange seeing cases of Buddhist and Hindu communities killing one another whilst in others they have the same prayers, the same holy sites, pray to the same people and hold the same values. Some real Sulis Minerva syncretism. But before I get sidetracked, Ashoka also supported jainism, and he send buddhist teachers around his Empire and abroad, but there were no spreading by the sword or forced conversions
« Last Edit: December 31, 2023, 12:46:00 pm by Loud Whispers »
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Schmaven

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7746 on: December 31, 2023, 01:05:14 pm »

Given the amount of overlap sometimes I wonder if the distinctions between the dharmic faiths even make sense, if they're just a practical consideration conjured up for legal census and identity reasons. It is very strange seeing cases of Buddhist and Hindu communities killing one another whilst in others they have the same prayers, the same holy sites, pray to the same people and hold the same values.

I don't know much about Hinduism, but from what I gather, Buddhism and Hinduism are similar like how Islam and Christianity are similar.  They share a lot in common, but some particular tenants are 100% incompatible.  Viewing Jesus as divine in the muslim faith would amount to polytheism/blasphemy and I think there have been crusades waged somewhat along those lines.

More accurately, all "religious" wars are in reality political in nature, and the various religious aspects are simply used as excuses to justify them to their populaces.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2023, 01:09:04 pm by Schmaven »
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7747 on: December 31, 2023, 01:16:03 pm »

Buddhism and Hinduism are completely incompatible by design, in a manner more similar to replacement-theology Christianity and Judaism. Buddhism basically says that the entire Hindu social system is wrong and must be scrapped.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7748 on: January 01, 2024, 11:09:21 pm »

Buddhism and Hinduism are completely incompatible by design, in a manner more similar to replacement-theology Christianity and Judaism. Buddhism basically says that the entire Hindu social system is wrong and must be scrapped.
Depends if you tack the whole caste system stuff as a Hindu thing or Indian thing. Got lots of Hindus who live outside of India and don't follow caste system, whilst there are places where Buddhism is part of the caste system, Indian Muslims have the whole Ashraf Sayyids/Shaykhs/Rajputs/Pashtuns/Mughals/Julāhās/Untouchables, and even Christian Indians carry over historical castes/become a caste unto their own. I like these more optimistic takes where people try to find the best in a faith and actually challenge if there is any basis in the cold aspects of it. Like people who choose to obey the old testament fire and brimstone and ignore the new testament hard work to do good for others and be forgiving... Why?

Magmacube_tr

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7749 on: January 05, 2024, 02:14:41 pm »

You know, I was apprehensive about Christianity, but after hearing this amazing reading of the Bible, I feel a bit on the fence about it all.
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Strongpoint

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7750 on: January 05, 2024, 02:24:16 pm »

You know, I was apprehensive about Christianity, but after hearing this amazing reading of the Bible, I feel a bit on the fence about it all.

Now I know how I will be punished in hell for atheism
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MaxTheFox

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7751 on: January 06, 2024, 05:48:37 am »

Did I void my get-into-Heaven-free card by laughing at and enjoying this? :P
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Egan_BW

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7752 on: January 06, 2024, 11:51:14 am »

Depends on your stance on deeds-based-salvation, my friend!
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Rolan7

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7753 on: January 07, 2024, 11:13:14 am »

Just saw an interesting quora post about why Christians were persecuted in ancient Rome.  Like most angry atheists I've seen (and made) comparisons between Christianity and a cannibalistic human-sacrificing death cult... because that's technically what it is, no shade... but this presents an interesting explanation for why Christianity was so offensive to Romans and Greeks particularly.

The point seems to be that worship of a human, especially a ritually unclean human, violated a lot of local taboos and thus drew particular ire.  So Christians would get blamed for bad fortune (but only once it arrived, due to the way the law worked).

I don't know if it's true but it's an interesting claim!  https://qr.ae/pKxk23
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McTraveller

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7754 on: January 07, 2024, 01:32:58 pm »

Huh, I didn't know the Romans had a concept of ritually unclean like like the Jews.

I thought most of the ire was that the Caesars claimed themselves deity, and didn't want to share "king of kings" title with anyone.

Early Christians were also an economic and social disruption: they eschewed magic (there was a booming business of selling "spells" in the day) and they also cared for the downtrodden instead of just letting them rot.

Nobody with any academic chops ever thought The Way was a cannibal cult either; that sounds like modern-day conspiracy theories that retconned transubstantiation to a reduction ad absurdum into history. Nowhere in the New Testament does salvation hinge on communion anyway - in fact there's way more about baptism than communion, and even that is still not a requisite for salvation.

I can see the bit about violating local taboos though; there were tons of "city deities" and I bet the Christians saying "sorry, that's not really a god you're worshipping" didn't go over very well.
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