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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Telgin]

This is something most of the religious people around here take a surprisingly practical view on, and most go to the doctor if they're sick and take medicine if prescribed.  Most of them believe in the idea that if they're drowning, sometimes God sends a boat to rescue them instead of poofing them out of the water.  A lot of them did scoff at COVID though, but I think that had a lot more to do with Fox News than anything.  Bad combination.  Some didn't believe it existed, some believed it was minor, etc.

They still pray for healing though, of course.

[Schmaven]

Would you say that someone with a disease, who does not have a good prognosis, should not have hope that maybe they'll be one of the 6% (or whatever) who beat the odds?  Unlikely as it is to be in that 6%, hope gives inspiration to more effectively apply the remedies.  It may still be the case that such a person is in the 94%, and such hope is false, but since the future is uncertain, what is the harm of such hope?

But it is not the kind of hope religions preach. Religions preach to act as if this 94% of death don't exist. It actually goes - I have hope that I am in those 6% and be the strength of the hope alone I am guaranteed to be cured and don't need to waste my time on treatments. And stuff like preparing for your own death? Forget about it!

I think that's a bit of a straw man argument.  Personally, I have received many spiritual teachings about preparing for death, and that death can come to us at any moment, so really, preparing for it is arguably the most important thing we can do while we still can.  Which religions would you say argue the opposite of this?

[Frumple]

... y'know, I was going to quip "prosperity gospel", but then I remembered they do argue for end of life preparations, too, it's just their idea of that is the preacher going something along the lines of "will everything you have to my personal bank account".

It's not exactly good advice, but that's what you get when you buy into heresy that inimical to basic decency. It definitely offers suggestions for preparing for death.

So I guess the question would be how bad does the teachings have to be before they stop counting? "Don't think about it and keep praying" is as much teaching on end of life preparation as anything, it's just staggeringly shit teaching.

[Strongpoint]

I think that's a bit of a straw man argument.  Personally, I have received many spiritual teachings about preparing for death, and that death can come to us at any moment, so really, preparing for it is arguably the most important thing we can do while we still can.  Which religions would you say argue the opposite of this?

I didn't imply that religions don't care about death. Religions revolve around Death and its inevitability.

I merely went along with your analogy. There is a huge difference between the "I may be cured" and "I will be cured" kinds of hope.

There is no the "may" type of hope in religion. It is the "will" type of hope. It is kinda harmless when it is outside the real world* "I will have an eternal life" but it is not OK when it is "I am immune to Covid"

* unless it is the hope of "I hope I'll get my 72 virgins in the afterlife if I'll blow up those godless people" variety

[Schmaven]

I agree with you that the "I will be cured solely due to my faith" type of hope is unrealistic and not helpful.  What I think of as faith is more along the lines of "This may in fact kill me, so I should prepare well for that very real possibility.  But also, I have within me, the unlimited potential for love, compassion & courage with which I can fight for life, and do whatever practical things are necessary to get better."  Faith in this case is more on the angle of providing the inner strength to do what is appropriate for ourselves and others, from the humble perspective that I have many flaws, and need to rely on others.

I admit I am not familiar with most religions, so your view that most of them are of the former type of faith may in fact be correct.  I just hope not for their sake.

[TD1]

Would you say that someone with a disease, who does not have a good prognosis, should not have hope that maybe they'll be one of the 6% (or whatever) who beat the odds?  Unlikely as it is to be in that 6%, hope gives inspiration to more effectively apply the remedies.  It may still be the case that such a person is in the 94%, and such hope is false, but since the future is uncertain, what is the harm of such hope?

Of course they should have hope.

In your hypothetical, the hope is well-founded. The individual is aware their chance is 6% and they hope (and ergo, often, work) to fall within that bracket. But they're aware that nothing is shifting the scales in their favour, and they should probably prepare for the most likely and worst scenario. Their expectations are realistic and well-informed.

Your scenario doesn't really qualify as hope-through-religion/faith, though.

Imagine the patient had a superstition that a root with no proven medicinal qualities, purchased from shamans, could increase her survival chance to 94%. She'd have a lot of hope, but it would be unfounded, and she'd not be preparing for the most likely and worst scenario. She'd be poorly informed.

The distinction between the two is the interceding force, whether of spirits, God, ancestors, angels, rhino horns, roots - whatever. Something which has no proven impact on the situation but, through misplaced hope, is unrealistically thought to increase a 6% chance of survival to a 94% chance of survival.

Can you see how damaging such false hope could be? There are a few anecdotal examples in the last few posts here.

[Schmaven]

I'm not talking about the hypothetical stereotypical evangelical type of belief / blind faith here.  I get the impression that this is what most people take issue with.  And to a large extent, so do I.  But I see their situation as a rather extreme manifestation of faith, not at all representative of the majority of faith in spiritual believers.  However, it does serve as a great lightning rod for drawing criticism due to their often irrational and illogical conclusions.

If it weren't for the placebo effect, I would be inclined to agree with you.  Since it works in up to 30% of cases, there is definitely some real value to belief, regardless of the source.  Though the mechanisms behind it are not well understood yet unfortunately.  Is it a reduction in stress from a belief that the "medicine" is effective causing the improvement?  Surely that is a component of it.  But it seems to be more than that.  Could there be a similar effect attributable to spiritual beliefs?  Seems likely to me.  But I am not aware of any specific placebo studies that take into account that variable. 

How would you explain the placebo effect?

[EuchreJack]

I recall in College that I had a night job and stomach problems. I didn't have any antacids, so I decided to believe in the ability of a Vitamin D tablet to help with my stomach. I successfully finished my shift.

Years later, I learned that Vitamin D does in fact help with stomach issues.

Sometimes, the "placebo" works.

[delphonso]

Placebo is also a result of things like follow up and expectations in a study. For weightloss, for example, you know you're going to check in with a weight check every two weeks. Obviously that will impact behavior, even if you're in the control group and taking empty pills. It's not just a magical brain-over-body thing.

[jipehog]

Numbers aren't everything, sometime we need a little magic in our life. Kiss away the pain variant sound silly but helps to manage mild pain through misdirection. Also hope is a feeling, and regardless of what people say, many struggle to maintain hope in the face of uncertainty, particularly the types who over analyze and obsess over how empty their cup when left to their own devices.

In many cases a persons mental well-being affect health outcome, particularly in cases involving long treatment/management of illness and recovery (especially if your stuck watching the celling in the hospital). Things like good relationship with your doctor through personal interaction (even the "fake" touch) help, and a support system of people who are there for you helps to maintain positive expectations, enthusiasm and motivations which have an impact.

To bring it back to religion, as noted before religion is about the sum of its parts, and I say that generally it lends to less individualistic more community and family oriented ideas which could help with later regardless of how you'd call it.

[Strongpoint]

How would you explain the placebo effect?

Anyone can Google many studies of the placebo effect. Many factors are in play and medical science is in the process of understanding all of them. It is a good enough answer for me.

I don't need a full explanation of everything, I am satisfied with evidence that a certain thing is real and can be (at least partially) predicted. Does it REALLY matter why Gravity works unless you are on the cutting edge of science?

[EuchreJack]

In related news, Churches are buying and forgiving debt.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/04/26/us/debt-jubilee-medical-trinity-moravian-cec/index.html
Maybe refer to this before trusting them for your tax advice. Even better, ask a damn accountant instead of trusting CNN...

[Frumple]

That's been a sporadic thing for... centuries? Something like that. It's occasionally just a scam, and has the standard potential issues for tax concerns in regards to forgiven debt, but it's an old, old thing.

Incredibly wildly insufficient as a means to mitigate or manage the general issue in society, of course, but it's not nothing for the folks it helps out. Sometimes churches actually do charity that's something other than a half-assed recruitment drive for tax grift purposes.

[jipehog]

How would you explain the placebo effect?

Anyone can Google many studies of the placebo effect. Many factors are in play and medical science is in the process of understanding all of them. It is a good enough answer for me.

I think the point is that faith/perception is powerful determinant of health in certain disease conditions i.e. giving sham medicine could work better than being informed..

[TD1]

Well, it will make you feel better anyway.

Placebos won't lower your cholesterol or shrink a tumor. Instead, placebos work on symptoms modulated by the brain, like the perception of pain. "Placebos may make you feel better, but they will not cure you," says Kaptchuk. "They have been shown to be most effective for conditions like pain management, stress-related insomnia, and cancer treatment side effects like fatigue and nausea."

So being given sham treatments might improve how people experience their condition (which in turn likely aids healing!), but it won't actively help the underlying issue.

Which makes sense, I guess. A purely psychological treatment gives psychological benefit.

My sentiment therefore remains the same: It is better to be well-informed so that appropriate steps may be taken.