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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[EuchreJack]

"Give unto Caesar what is Caesars and unto God what is God's." - Jesus on separation of Church and State
So yeah, Christianity was born in that separation.

My opinion: Most religions are too new.  They are like adolescent children that don't know how to behave.  The only reason that practitioners of Judaism and Dharma seem better is because they're older.  The only reason Islam and Mormonism lend towards extremism is because they are younger.

Also, surviving oppression builds compassion, for whatever that is worth.

Also, I fell into the trap of not understanding the gospel phrase, "You once were Homosexuals, but now you are Christians".
It doesn't mean that Homosexuality and Christianity are mutually exclusive, it means Homosexuals were among the first Christians!

While jarring, I feel it important to say this:
People make the same mistake discussing the Holocaust.  It wasn't the Germans killing the Jews.  It was the Nazis killing the German Jews, and a whole lot of other people both of Jewish descendant.

I'm not sure how much longer I'm going to be able to continue this discussion.  It's too serious for my tastes.

[martinuzz]

While jarring, I feel it important to say this:
People make the same mistake discussing the Holocaust.  It wasn't the Germans killing the Jews.  It was the Nazis killing the German Jews.

That's kinda disrespectful to all the Polish, Russian, Dutch, French, Belgian, Hungarian, and many more nationalities of jews that were killed by the german nazis.

[Grim Portent]

That's kinda disrespectful to all the Polish, Russian, Dutch, French, Belgian, Hungarian, and many more nationalities of jews that were killed by the german nazis.

I think the point was meant to be that the Nazis were targeting the jewish populations of Germany and their occupied nations, rather than them targeting all Jews everywhere. It wasn't meant to handwave their non-german jewish victims, or their non-jewish victims.

Which is strictly speaking correct, in that the 3rd Reich's policies were intended to get rid of all the groups they considered lesser in Germany and the lands they wanted for Lebensraum, but they had no greater plan for worldwide genocide of their target groups. At least not at the point in time they survived to, if the regime had survived more than a decade they may have gotten greater ambitions for expansion and genocide.

[martinuzz]

What did we call a dead German in the Hunger Winter of '44-'45 in the Netherlands?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Schweinefleisch

[McTraveller]

Also, I fell into the trap of not understanding the gospel phrase, "You once were Homosexuals, but now you are Christians".
It doesn't mean that Homosexuality and Christianity are mutually exclusive, it means Homosexuals were among the first Christians!

Do you mean "epistle", not "gospel"? Also I'm not recalling that verse at all - what's the reference, and what translation?

Also the many instances of "once you were an X, now you are saved" are trying to say "your identity should be in Christ, not in whatever it was in which you found identity before."  Those verses aren't to condemn or promote any specific lifestyles - they are to say "only Christ."  They also hint at "you don't have to stop doing something or start doing something before you come to Christ - you come just as you are."

Given there is so much in the Gospels and Epistles about dying to self and putting off the old self - I'd argue there's a lot that says Christianity is indeed at odds with most lifestyles, because most lifestyles are self-first, and Christianity most assuredly is not that.

Basically taking the verse to say "early Christians included homosexuals" is true but it's not really making the point you are thinking it's making: Christianity included prostitutes, murderers, criminals, practicers of magic, housewives, soldiers, farmers, peasants, rich merchants, eunuchs, people from all races, religious elite - basically everyone.  This is partly what made The Way so unique in that time period - it said you could come as you are, to be made new, rather than simply being restricted by how you were born or raised or life circumstances.

[EuchreJack]

While jarring, I feel it important to say this:
People make the same mistake discussing the Holocaust.  It wasn't the Germans killing the Jews.  It was the Nazis killing the German Jews.

That's kinda disrespectful to all the Polish, Russian, Dutch, French, Belgian, Hungarian, and many more nationalities of jews that were killed by the german nazis.

Good point, I fixed it.
The point that I was trying to make is that the Jewish people in Germany were as much German as the Nazi people in Germany that were killing them.

Oh, and agree mostly with McTraveller.

[MaxTheFox]

Also, I fell into the trap of not understanding the gospel phrase, "You once were Homosexuals, but now you are Christians".
It doesn't mean that Homosexuality and Christianity are mutually exclusive, it means Homosexuals were among the first Christians!

Most Bible verses that are commonly interpreted as condemning homosexuality are actually condemning pederasty, i.e pedophilia.

Of course, you don't have to be a Christian to hate pedos, I hated them even more before I converted. Now I don't want to kill them, merely give them no tolerance, no special rights, no recognition.

[Rolan7]

So many Abrahamics offer peace, and I want to accept.  Many of the best people I've known have been Christian, and one is Islamic.

I remain terrified that people will use the scripture against me.  Because that is what is happening in the USA, despite us theoretically being a nation of free religion.

[EuchreJack]

So many Abarhamics offer peace, and I want to accept.  Many of the best people I've known have been Christian, and one is Islamic.

I remain terrified that people will use the scripture against me.  Because that is what is happening in the USA, despite us theoretically being a nation of free religion.

The best way to protect yourself is to know the scripture yourself.
It's amazing how often it gets misquoted.

As Fox mentioned above, understanding the translations helps also.

[Rolan7]

That's true, that's true.
The bible describes abortion and never says it's a bad thing.

[EuchreJack]

That's true, that's true.
The bible describes abortion and never says it's a bad thing.

And how exactly does the Book in which the Lord & Savior makes Wine advocate for the outlawing of Alcoholic Beverages?

[wierd]

It doesnt exactly.

In fact, it says to drink some wine for the sake of your stomach's health, and "God approves of drinking some to brighten the mood" -- but to not drink in excess.

[Rolan7]

So many Abarhamics offer peace, and I want to accept.  Many of the best people I've known have been Christian, and one is Islamic.

I remain terrified that people will use the scripture against me.  Because that is what is happening in the USA, despite us theoretically being a nation of free religion.

The best way to protect yourself is to know the scripture yourself.
It's amazing how often it gets misquoted.

As Fox mentioned above, understanding the translations helps also.

I don't know what you mean, because I am under the influence of the grape - in a way that the Muslim aren't (theoretically).

I can say with full confidence that the Bible has nothing against abortion.  Full stop.  It never says a single thing against abortion.

It does explain how to do abortion, in Numbers 5:11.  Those wives who go astray know what to do.
God, Jehovah, Yahweh, is extremely clear on this point.

And also: those who follow Muhammed, peace be upon him, reject alcohol.  I see the wisdom in that.

[Telgin]

I found some discussion that says that the mention of miscarriage in that passage is a mistranslation in newer translations.  The King James Version just talks about swelling bellies and rotting thighs, whatever that means.  Maybe that's just a strange euphemism for a miscarriage.

Exodus 21:22 seems to imply that the death of a baby by premature birth is equivalent to murder, but one could possibly argue that this is a more specific ruling than abortion in general since it's accidental.

Small side note, but Exodus 22:21 is something someone should throw back at anyone who claims to be a Christian but gets wrapped up in politics about keeping foreigners out of the country.

[TD1]

“Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt."

Seems to comment on how you should treat foreigners when they're in the country, not the criteria by which they're allowed entry.