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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 682344 times)

Egan_BW

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6885 on: November 30, 2020, 11:00:06 pm »

The existence of hells much be punished sharply, lest the threat of tossing people into eternal torture machines becomes a dominant strategy. Morally, if any entity owns a hell or attempts to create one, it's your duty to KILL THE FUCK OUT OF IT
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Rolan7

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6886 on: November 30, 2020, 11:15:28 pm »

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« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 02:41:11 pm by Rolan7 »
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Telgin

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6887 on: December 01, 2020, 12:05:49 am »

I feel that "He will have me tortured for all eternity if I don't worship him" is a pretty compelling argument to worship him.

Yeah, and this is actually the main reason I used to be a Christian as a kid.  Fire and brimstone preaching is common around here, and as a kid I honestly believed that I could have a random bad thought, have a heart attack and would die and go to Hell because I shouldn't be having bad thoughts.  I was actually pretty OCD about it, stopping to pray and ask forgiveness several times an hour out of the fear I'd done or thought something I shouldn't have in that period and was at terrible risk of burning for eternity.

If anyone ever wonders why I'm bitter about Christianity, it's because of that.

Now, don't get me wrong.  If god appeared to me plainly and told me to do X or I'd burn forever in Hell, that would be a very powerful motivator.  I'd probably do whatever X was, but I could never serve such a being willingly and out of love like we're told we're supposed to.  It would only be out of paralyzing fear.

But, of course, that leads back to the point that there's no evidence for god's existence, which was the main thing that caused me to lose my faith.  God never did anything impossible, and rarely did things that seemed improbable.  Dead people don't come back to life (no, having your heart stop and later restart does not mean you died).  People don't regrow lost limbs.  People recover from terminal diseases like cancer with about the probability that science expects, with or without prayer.  So... that leads to natural conclusions.  If nothing else it implies that prayer does nothing.

That's actually a different can of worms, where one can question what the point of praying is when god will do what god wants.  Depending on if you believe in free will, it makes prayer entirely pointless since god knows what the future holds and if / who will pray for what, and thus it's all predetermined by the future he knows and allows to exist.  But that's been discussed recently and multiple times previously.
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MaxTheFox

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6888 on: December 01, 2020, 12:21:19 am »

Well I was taught that as long as I accepted Jesus... it wouldn't matter if I sinned in a minor way.
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wierd

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6889 on: December 01, 2020, 12:23:30 am »

Except of course, the "Tortured for all eternity" thing is totally in-congruent with what is actually in the bible.

The actual verse in Revelations that gets abused for this, says that there is a fire, the smoke of which rises forever and ever.  The actual end-result is eternal death, which is what atheists are already "Perfectly OK with."

(specifically, see Rev 14.)
Spoiler:  relevant chapter (click to show/hide)



The real etymology of "Burning in hell forever", is a fusion of the old Roman idea of the underworld, fused with the nordic "dishonorable death" afterlife in Hel's frigid household, and then shoehorned into this Rev 14 verse. 

The original semitic belief system has a kind of "Holding cell" system, where you have 3 distinct, and physically separated areas divided by an unpassable river, with an area each for the faithful dead, the unfaithful dead, and those that died in ignorance.  The souls of the dead are held there until the final judgement, at which time they are judged, and either go on to eternal glory, or are committed to the final eternal death.  The point of the resurrection was the decomissioning of this system, and this is the 'triumph of the grave' spoken of in the gospels. EG-- Christ went to the two 'bad' holding cells, and ministered to the dead, allowing them the chance to go with the dead in the good holding cell, to wait at the judgement seat of god. (which is where the dead go NOW-- This is a kind of temporal shortcut straight to the end of days, which is functionally the same as being 'asleep' until that time-- You are not available for comment, and from the persective of the dead, they take the shortcut straight there.  This is what is meant when Christ says 'the dead know nothing'; they are totally oblivious to the goings on on Earth, while the timer runs out. It is also why the only way into heaven now, is through him. The old testament is no more.)

See for instance, Apocryphal book of Enoch where this holding system is described.

Pertinent citation


However, the catholic dogma REALLY REALLY likes the idea of eternal torment and damnation, for reasons that can only be described as political.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 12:30:40 am by wierd »
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Telgin

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6890 on: December 01, 2020, 12:30:18 am »

It's a ubiquitous belief among Protestants too, though arguably for the same reason.

This list of verses does provide some evidence that the Bible supports eternal torment too: link.

Well I was taught that as long as I accepted Jesus... it wouldn't matter if I sinned in a minor way.

That's a much more reasonable interpretation, but nobody ever preached that around here.  Admittedly, it may have just never come up and was me filling in the dots as a kid, but when you're told that everything from liking Pokemon to buying something on Sunday would send you to Hell, it made god seem awfully capricious and intolerant so it wasn't hard to fill in the dots that way.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6891 on: December 01, 2020, 12:39:16 am »

A funny thing about the Jehovah's Witnesses is that, in spite of all their infamous abuses, they make an interesting point that infernalist doctrine is basically character assassination of God in the eyes of annihilationists and universalists (the JWs being annihilationists). 
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wierd

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6892 on: December 01, 2020, 12:42:32 am »

My own interpretation of the bible, holds with the christ figure's teachings that *ALL* men are sinners, and *ALL* are found unworthy. For this reason, the only way into heaven, is to accept the tutelage of the christ, who essentially provides a kind of "work release"/"community service" path out of the eternal damnation.

Specifically, the action of repentance-- (acknowledging your sin, and taking pained efforts to not recidivate, even though you are doomed to do so, because of your sin nature) demonstrates your decision to abstain from that sin, and your desire for such reform.  This entitles you to the 1000 years of direct tutelage by the christ. After this period, satan will be released from captivity once more to once more test to see if you were really true in your devotions, and the final judgement will then begin, once satan is once more defeated, and his rebellion quelled.

Pertinent chapter

The bible is replete with passages about how the consummate sinner is unrepentant, and returns to their sin over and over again, rather than seeking a way out. (with various descriptive metaphors, such as "dog returning to its own vomit", et al.)

 
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delphonso

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6893 on: December 01, 2020, 01:02:24 am »

Fun fact, when Christianity first contacted Slavic pagans, when informed of hell as a place of eternal fire, the Slavs said that sounded pretty good.

Egan_BW

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6894 on: December 01, 2020, 01:06:49 am »

It's like a land of eternal sauna.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6895 on: December 01, 2020, 01:24:16 am »

I do like how the Babylonian religion is pretty much "the gods are all evil, there's no hope, you're at the mercy of a capricious and disgusting world, and death is a blessing". 
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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thompson

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6896 on: December 01, 2020, 01:27:59 am »

Th idea of eternal torment has been subject to theological critique for about as long as it existed. The philosophical problems of pagans unreachable by Christians was certainly a source of angst for some. In the Divine Comedy Dante even includes a circle of hell for benign pagans which is more-or-less Earth-like. Not eternal paradise, but not exactly a bad place to be either.

These days I think mainstream Christian thought (Catholic and Protestant) is moving away from the idea entirely, but with the rise of Pentecostalism it’ll likely carry on through that.

The idea of hell is probably what made me agnostic in the first place. The rules just seemed so arbitrary. What really did it for me was the meme where you have to tick all the gods you believe in. At that point, I realised I had nothing to defend checking one box and not the others. 18 years of Catholic education, and I couldn’t answer that one question.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6897 on: December 01, 2020, 05:21:07 pm »

I do like how the Babylonian religion is pretty much "the gods are all evil, there's no hope, you're at the mercy of a capricious and disgusting world, and death is a blessing".
At least you can visit the sacred prostitutes to cheer up when the gods curse you for forty by forty generations

Grim Portent

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6898 on: December 01, 2020, 06:05:47 pm »

You could also play the Babylonian gods against each other. IIRC Pazuzu was the god prayed to for protection of mothers during childbirth, because despite being a cruel god of plague and famine he was sworn enemies with the goddess who wanted to kill mothers and babies, so even if he wasn't your ally at any other time, when contractions were coming a prayer to him could be the difference between celebrating a birth and mourning a death.
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6899 on: December 02, 2020, 12:26:04 am »

I looked up Pazuzu and a Mayan entity also shares the name, king of demons and controls wind
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