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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 686657 times)

Teneb

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6450 on: December 24, 2018, 09:12:55 am »

That's Saturnalia or Yule to you, donkey worshipper.
Saturnalia ended yesterday actually.
Yeah, today's the eve of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti.

Yea, actually, a lot of pagan winter festivals and cultural elements got incorporated into Christmas as it spread through Europe. Pretty much everything outside of the nativity itself got incorporated from elsewhere.
Frankly, if anything that's an exaggeration.
Only slightly. The success of the latin christianity was it's ability to compromise with folk customs and festivals.
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Monstrous Manual: D&D in DF
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What if “slammed in the ass by dead philosophers” is actually the thing which will progress our culture to the next step?

Persus13

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6451 on: December 24, 2018, 09:33:29 am »

Yea, actually, a lot of pagan winter festivals and cultural elements got incorporated into Christmas as it spread through Europe. Pretty much everything outside of the nativity itself got incorporated from elsewhere.
Frankly, if anything that's an exaggeration.
Only slightly. The success of the latin christianity was it's ability to compromise with folk customs and festivals.
Well to be fair, its a statement generic enough to be a matter of opinion. For instance, Dies Natalis Solis Invicti began being celebrated about the same time as Christmas, so its up for debate whether one tried to coopt the other or they just happened to coincide. As for the success of Latin Christianity, that's a nice book thesis you got there.
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smjjames

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6452 on: December 24, 2018, 12:07:47 pm »

Maybe a little bit of an exaggeration, but still, there was definetly cultural transfer.
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Rolan7

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6453 on: December 28, 2018, 11:21:31 pm »

Crossquoting the Happy thread from a couple days ago, since I agree with Arx that this is the better location:
(This part compiled into a pyramid for convenience)
If you're going atheist then aura of conviction is a necessity to defend against other people's reasoning. Necro Mastery in an Atheist build is fairly meek, it only gives you the ability to post in old threads on the internet.
What do I take for maximum /r/iamverysmart?
Anything where you have all the answers, and cannot be proven wrong.
...So not religion.
On the contrary! The use of tortured logic to create a-priori arguments that revolve around an unassailable axiom (which is a core component of the faith), are a prominent feature in many religions!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proslogion
This was my point, of course.  I was pithily describing religion as claiming to explain everything, yet being unfalsifiable.
I was being snappy, but I stand by it.

I still dabble in "the occult" occasionally, though not as much recently.  I find meaning in warm, fierce rainstorms with thunder.  Less so winter's lazy drizzle/sleet.  Snow is something else, but it's very limited here.

My belief seems equally unfalsifiable:  I posit natural spirits, with agency, who are responsible for certain things.  But they cannot be tested.  In my belief system, they are literally "gods of the gap":  They live exactly outside of scientific understanding.

They cannot be disproved, though an attempt to do so may reduce them.  Rigorous study of reality shrinks their realm.  And that's okay - they're jerks.  And patient.

Initially this was an experiment of mine to understand faith (and religion to an extent, though I think religion as a social construct is easier to criticize).  I took something which I'd always felt was true, growing up near a fearsome wilderness, and... opened my mind to the idea that the things I imagined as a child had were in some way real.  Untestable, outside, comforting and frightening.  It was an experiment, several years ago, but it quickly felt real.  The feelings are real, I did not stand in rain for an hour for a meme or joke.  I felt a meditative zen.

It almost bothers me that I'm losing connection with this feeling.  In past years I would truly dread winter ice storms and the power outtages, now I have a mobile computer in my pocket with plenty of power.  I no longer fear the night.
And that feels like a loss of something I had.

...I meant to reply to Eschar, but I got distracted by a crisis of faith I suppose.
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Hanslanda

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6454 on: December 29, 2018, 06:08:27 am »

I started it so I'll chime in with opinions!

I'm a so called 'weak atheist' or 'agnostic atheist'. I am not sure there is no god(s) but I feel like there probably isn't. Religion seems a silly, misused superstition to me, that is mainly used to separate the weak-minded from their money. Which conflicts with my knowing a great many very intelligent people who are devout.

I would agree that atheism of the strong variety is a belief system and especially those somewhat objectionable New Atheists (most of them are antitheists which is even more of a belief system than atheism) whom I don't always agree with.

That said... I have no imaginary friend and I never have but I don't mind if others do.
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Well, we could put two and two together and write a book: "The Shit that Hans and Max Did: You Won't Believe This Shit."
He's fucking with us.

Egan_BW

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6455 on: December 29, 2018, 06:41:38 am »

I guess that makes me the "strong atheist", then. It's pretty simple; there's no god, dummy.
Agnostics take this opportunity to point out that I can't be sure of that. Sure, I'm not sure there's no god, because I can't be sure about anything. But come on, if I'm as close to being sure as I can get, I may as well drop the "agnostic" label and be an atheist.

I think that religion is an unhealthy habit at best and handy excuse to commit atrocities at worst, but I suppose if it's not hurting anyone it's none of my business what shit people believe in. Many americans have an unsettling habit of shoving it in everyone's face, though.


Really though, if religion didn't exist I'd have no reason to believe in god. Why should I give up that inch of "well it's technically possible that you're right" just because it's popular?
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Hanslanda

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6456 on: December 29, 2018, 09:32:08 am »

They used to horribly murder us. I'm hedging my bets.
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Well, we could put two and two together and write a book: "The Shit that Hans and Max Did: You Won't Believe This Shit."
He's fucking with us.

TD1

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6457 on: December 29, 2018, 09:59:29 am »

Mooooordor.
Christianity - the persecuted cult which grew to persecute in turn.

Anyway, I'm an atheist much as Egan is. Also, I don't see how a lack of belief is a belief system. A vacuum is not matter.
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Hanslanda

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6458 on: December 29, 2018, 10:22:33 am »

[Insert boring, hair-splitting explanation here]
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Well, we could put two and two together and write a book: "The Shit that Hans and Max Did: You Won't Believe This Shit."
He's fucking with us.

hector13

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6459 on: December 29, 2018, 10:27:14 am »

Well that’s one way to stunt discussion.
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Hanslanda

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6460 on: December 29, 2018, 10:57:15 am »

Sorry mate. It was a pithy joke. I'm not in the right headspace to contribute properly.
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Well, we could put two and two together and write a book: "The Shit that Hans and Max Did: You Won't Believe This Shit."
He's fucking with us.

Teneb

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6461 on: December 29, 2018, 11:17:51 am »

Anyway, I'm an atheist much as Egan is. Also, I don't see how a lack of belief is a belief system. A vacuum is not matter.
A vacuum is not matter, true, but we can prove that vacuum. We cannot prove that a god or gods or other divine power do or do not exist. As such, one could argue that atheism is the belief that there is no divine power. Believing in not believing, if you will.
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What if “slammed in the ass by dead philosophers” is actually the thing which will progress our culture to the next step?

Egan_BW

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6462 on: December 29, 2018, 11:33:23 am »

But like. An infinite number of potential things exist in the same undisprovable place as god, and I don't believe in any of them. An agnostic doesn't believe in any of them but believes in god just a little bit more than any of the others. Why?
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Teneb

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6463 on: December 29, 2018, 11:36:38 am »

But like. An infinite number of potential things exist in the same undisprovable place as god, and I don't believe in any of them. An agnostic doesn't believe in any of them but believes in god just a little bit more than any of the others. Why?
I dunno man. I may be a priest, but I'm not exactly a good one.
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Max™

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6464 on: December 30, 2018, 09:53:39 am »

Oh yeah, I was pretty damn happy with finally figuring out how to concisely explain why I'm not an atheist, or agnostic, or theological nonconitivist or anything of the sort, I realized I don't have a favorite baseball team and this needs no label or acceptance of an arbitrary category.

I don't have a favorite country song, I don't listen to it. I don't care about the pros and cons of various table saws, I only use hand tools. I couldn't tell you which xbox one game I want to play the most, I don't have or intend to get one. In much the same way I've found I don't need to answer a question which implies acceptance of certain conditions and categories: this question does not apply to me, nor do the categories which one can sort various answers into. The intersection of my set and that of any answer to "what religion are you" isn't even empty, it doesn't exist in any sense because they use different axioms than I do which leads to incompatible frameworks entirely.

Accepting the label atheist or agnostic requires conceding that the question should be answered, which allows a framing of the discussion such that all presented options are valid, even if you mark "none of the above" you're still doing so on an artificially flattened playing field.

If someone came after you demanding you pick a favorite hockey team when you've never even cared to watch a game in your life, it would be understandable to look at them like a nutcase, but calling yourself an apuckeist or something is equally nutty.

Why is it any different when people do this with a belief system?
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