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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Orange Wizard]

I know as much as any Christian, and other people say the same as I do

Pretty sure 99% of Christians you talk to would say stealing is wrong and you should give the hypothetical wallet back, because they're not ignoring the whole "faith without works is dead" thing

FWIW 100% of the Christians in the thread are saying you're wrong, and the burden of proof lies on thyself

Yeah, but there's still the underlying question of not being a dick because you place value on the perspective and existence of the other person, or not being a dick because all of existence is based around the tenets and teachings of a theodical being beyond our comprehension, and it just so happens not being a dick kinda matches with His/Her/God's agenda. 

"Do unto others as you would have them do to you" - Jesus

Sounds like not being a dick was in his agenda

[TD1]

Dickishness is relative.

For instance, to draw back to the by-now-probably-proverbial wallet it's pretty darn bad to take it from an earthly point of view. But if your God ascribes absolutely no value to it and says that repentance and development are the only important things, not whether John Smith and his children starve tonight, then it's not a bad thing. It's a meaningless means to the end of eschatological reward, which John Smith can share in too if he plays his cards right.

It's an eternal existence on a perfect plane. That one guy who stole your wallet and repented, but failed to reimburse you, isn't going to matter all that much.

Perhaps mine is a niche view, but it seems like a natural logical conclusion of what Christianity says. Actions are not important. Belief and repentance, even without accompanying action, is.

Pretty sure 99% of Christians you talk to would say stealing is wrong and you should give the hypothetical wallet back, because they're not ignoring the whole "faith without works is dead" thing

FWIW 100% of the Christians in the thread are saying you're wrong, and the burden of proof lies on thyself

What Christians want to believe is not what I'm describing.

"Do unto others as you would have them do to you" - Jesus

Sounds like not being a dick was in his agenda

Of course, he did sound rather dickish when he called a Canaanite a dog. This is a rather relative statement, depending upon what you'd like people to do to you. I might love BDSM, but if someone is terrified of confinement I'm not going to tie them up, despite having others do it to me. - not true story.

[NRDL]

I love the Golden Rule, intuitively, it makes sense to me ( and I'm assuming to the majority of humanity ), and the fact is it's basically based on human selfishness.  In order to treat other people with as much decency, patience, kindness, and generosity as possible, one would have to on some level expect that from other people.  A person who expects nothing, gives nothing to others, if one were to overly strictly interpret it. 

[DJ]

Perhaps mine is a niche view, but it seems like a natural logical conclusion of what Christianity says. Actions are not important. Belief and repentance, even without accompanying action, is.

That's pretty much the opposite of Catholic Church's view. At least in my highschool religion class, which was taught by an actual nun, they taught us that you don't have to be a Christian to go to Heaven, you only need to be a good person.

[TD1]

That's a new one on me, but it sounds much better from a moral point of view.

I've always thought that a good God ought not bar an atheist/other religion person simply for not believing in something which, at times, is rather far fetched. Instead, they would let them in - and any God that doesn't reward actual goodness over belief isn't a good God. In my opinion, of course.

[Orange Wizard]

For instance, to draw back to the by-now-probably-proverbial wallet it's pretty darn bad to take it from an earthly point of view. But if your God ascribes absolutely no value to it and says that repentance and development are the only important things, not whether John Smith and his children starve tonight, then it's not a bad thing. It's a meaningless means to the end of eschatological reward, which John Smith can share in too if he plays his cards right.

What? Money has value. Of course it has value. How would it not? You can buy food and give it to John Smith.

It's an eternal existence on a perfect plane. That one guy who stole your wallet and repented, but failed to reimburse you, isn't going to matter all that much.

We're not on an eternal plane, actions in the present matter in the present

Perhaps mine is a niche view, but it seems like a natural logical conclusion of what Christianity says.

No-one else seems to think so

Actions are not important. Belief and repentance, even without accompanying action, is.

Sorry are we looking at the same Christianity? Mine has a bunch of stuff about working for the good of everyone around me, giving generously, not stealing, treating people with respect, guess that's not part of it?

What Christians want to believe is not what I'm describing.

Then your entire argument is antitheistic wank and very, very wrong

[DJ]

Yeah, the stance is pretty much that it's all about taking the path of good, and Christianity is like a map that makes it a lot easier to find and stay on that path.

[TD1]

Yeah, the stance is pretty much that it's all about taking the path of good, and Christianity is like a map that makes it a lot easier to find and stay on that path.

That sounds really good! I mean, I don't believe it, but kudos to the people teaching it!

Then your entire argument is antitheistic wank and very, very wrong

My argument is based upon the main theme in the Bible - the after life - being the most important aspect of the Bible. Guidelines for good moral behaviour (though defining good is sometimes shady in terms of issues like slavery and warfare) are included as things to show that you're following the path to Paradise, but if you do transgress then all you need is to be truly repentant for it to be cleansed. You can do a good work after if you want to, and it's certainly indicative of true repentance, but it's not essential. This is my understanding of the message. Term it a wank if you want.

[Orange Wizard]

How do you reconcile that understanding with the fact that the Bible explicitly states that trying to do good is essential?

[TD1]

Where does it say that?

Also, you wouldn't want to disagree with Milton, now would you? He's a blind old man!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

WHEN I consider how my light is spent   
  E're half my days, in this dark world and wide,   
  And that one Talent which is death to hide,   
  Lodg'd with me useless, though my Soul more bent   
To serve therewith my Maker, and present            
  My true account, least he returning chide,   
  Doth God exact day-labour, light deny'd,   
  I fondly ask; But patience to prevent   
That murmur, soon replies, God doth not need   
  Either man's work or his own gifts, who best    
  Bear his milde yoak, they serve him best, his State   
Is Kingly. Thousands at his bidding speed   
  And post o're Land and Ocean without rest:   
  They also serve who only stand and waite

[Orange Wizard]

Where does it say that?

Everywhere

Matthew 25:31-46English Standard Version (ESV)

The Final Judgment
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

John 13:34-35English Standard Version (ESV)

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[a] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

[Kot]

Eh.
Bible, just as any other religious writing in the world is horrendously inconsistent and so are organizations based on it and in general it's very easy to bash religion due to it's flaws and you could have (and we had) wars over it, but in the end it's the general "soul" of it that matters, the things that we are told in school (be it by nun, priest or non-associated teacher) and in temples and so on - and since very long time majority of Christians subscribe to the rule of "don't be a dick" and things seem to go pretty well. The Paradise/Heaven/Whateveryoucallit is a reward, not the objective, the objective is to be a decent human bean because that is what would Jeebus want. The requirement of repentance is more like a sign that you're a decent human bean because that's something you should feel and if you feel it then you're proably going to do good work by yourself anyways, but if you somehow can't then repentance itself is okay too. Trying to cheat the system by just repenting while you can also fix your wrongdoings proably means you're not actually feeling bad and thus are shitty human bean and that's not what Jeebus wants.

To summarize:
Don't be a dick, use common sense, don't bash theists, don't bash atheists, be decent human bean.

[TheBiggerFish]

@Th4DwArfY1: Being truly repentant is making reparations.

[TD1]

Ah, whoops. I seem to have neglected responding.

Everywhere

John seems to disagree.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

Suggesting only belief is needed.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Suggesting that what is important is faith. Whether or not people moralise according to the Bible seems to be a litmus test - Light and Darkness is irrelevant except in where they indicate faith in God. So they can do all "in the sight of God." This is my interpretation, though - there's probably ten thousand out there.

1 John 2:1  My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

If someone sins, Jesus is the way to atonement/redemption.

I could look elsewhere to find things, but I'll stop there. The Bible is a bit dense/hard to read at times

@Th4DwArfY1: Being truly repentant is making reparations.

Being repentant is believing you were in the wrong and saying so to God. The two are not synonyms. Being repentant often leads to reparation, but not always.

[TheDarkStar]

My take on repentance: I also believe that repentance is more than just realizing that you're in the wrong and telling Jesus/your concept of deity. It's a very important step, but it's equally important to actually fix whatever you did (apologize, pay for to fix/replace something, etc) and then work on not repeating whatever you messed up on.


Belief requiring/not requiring action: Believing in Christ includes following what he says. James 2:19 (which is just before the "faith without works is dead" verse) provides an example:

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble.

There are other interpretations, but mine is that faith is worthless without accompanying actions.