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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[i2amroy]

So ye, be nice to people, have empathy, forgive your enemies, love others before you love yourself. In the end, it'll be better for you, even if you aren't part of some ur-being that encompasses all of humanity. Its also a goal envisioned in several interpretations of buddhism, IE, the greatest happiness is when the happiness of others becomes your own happiness, so help people be happy.

Or love yourself by realizing that helping others will actually lead to a better net total for yourself in most cases. Every person that I help now is one more person I can call on in a time of need, one less person who is likely to come back at me for revenge, and that much more of a benefit to the whether or not individuals in society view me as a potential threat that they need to address. As game theory will tell you, an altruistic eye-for-an-eye with a chance of forgiveness is the plan that will come out on top in any iterated prisoners dilemma by far. Give first to others, and then give back what they give to you, but be willing to forgive occasionally to break any cycles of hatred that may be formed.

[Frumple]

... nihilistic hedonism doesn't preclude dedicating much of one's life to charity/aid/goodwill/etc. The benefit of the entire species often is your own pleasure -- some of the earliest/most fundamental hedonists in human history held being in the company of other people, helping friends/family/etc., to be one of the highest pleasures attainable in life. There's plenty of folks that help out like that mostly just 'cause it makes 'em feel good. Far from the sole reason for it, but it's definitely an existent one.

[penguinofhonor]

Moving a discussion here from the sad thread about Mormonism, Catholicism, and unified church structure. A forumer posted her negative experiences in the Mormon Church, which prompted a couple comments contrasting them to other members' denominations. I replied to Helgoland's mention of Catholicism and it went from there. If you want to catch up, start reading at that post and keep going until I link you back here.

I think the stuff specifically about that excommunicated priest is kind of a separate, tangential discussion. I'm less prepared to talk about it so I'm leaving it be, but people can bring it over here if they want to.

I think you misunderstand my point. I'm not saying Catholicism is "as bad" as Mormonism. I wouldn't even broadly describe Mormonism as bad. What I'm saying is that Catholicism's united structure isn't responsible for its views being more accepting, and that the structure does not deal with many of the problems that were originally brought up, such as being ostracized by lay church members. In fact, the church can hinder improving the situation for its followers if people perceive that it would harm the church organization.

[Amperzand]

I feel I may contribute to this discussion at some point.

[Rolepgeek]

... nihilistic hedonism doesn't preclude dedicating much of one's life to charity/aid/goodwill/etc. The benefit of the entire species often is your own pleasure -- some of the earliest/most fundamental hedonists in human history held being in the company of other people, helping friends/family/etc., to be one of the highest pleasures attainable in life. There's plenty of folks that help out like that mostly just 'cause it makes 'em feel good. Far from the sole reason for it, but it's definitely an existent one.

I'm not saying it doesn't. For some people, helping others is fun and they like doing it. I am one of those people. But not everyone is one of those people. Some people just don't like other people. Misanthropes and whatnot, they're usually referred to as. Whether it's because they look at the world and say 'Well this is fucked, and I can guess whose fault that is', or if they just don't get many warm fuzzies out of it like most people, my point was that you don't have to realize that doing things for the Greater Good is better than doing things for the pleasure you can get out of them in your limited lifespan. That's not the only 'valid' philosophical viewpoint. For some people, it's actually a rather toxic viewpoint because it means they end up not taking care of themselves.

[Amperzand]

So, random thought. What would be your reaction if a study provided reasoned and conclusive proof of the existence, or, equally, nonexistence, of a supernatural higher power?

I'm not religious, nor am I looking to start some kind of flamebaity shenanigan, I just felt it would be an interesting question to ask.

I'd probably be fascinated and consider involving myself in religion in the former case, and amusedly approving in the latter.

[Orange Wizard]

I'd probably convert to whatever the relevant religion happened to be.

In the event that the existence of YHWH was proven to be false (I believe this to be impossible, mind you, so I can't really see it happening), I'd have to find some other way to achieve immortality.

[Rolepgeek]

I'd probably convert to whatever the relevant religion happened to be.

In the event that the existence of YHWH was proven to be false (I believe this to be impossible, mind you, so I can't really see it happening), I'd have to find some other way to achieve immortality.

Nanobots.

Depends on which supernatural entity/what relevance said entity had. I'm less straight atheist and more mysotheistic agnostic.

[Orange Wizard]

Nanobots.

I mean eternal immortality, not that pansy only-until-the-heat-death-of-the-universe immortality.

[Rose]

Eh, God existing isn't a good enough reason to worship him.

[Rolepgeek]

Nanobots.

I mean eternal immortality, not that pansy only-until-the-heat-death-of-the-universe immortality.

From my perspective, they're essentially equal. Tens of trillions of years compared to maybe a hundred+ seems like a good deal to me.

Plus, live long enough, and we might find that the laws of physics are more mutable than we'd thought. Or simply escape to other universes as gods of a sort. *Shrug*

[Kot]

Eh, God existing isn't a good enough reason to worship him.

Especially considering that he turns out to be quite a dick if you think hard about it and in case he reveals himself (and the question, would it be actually the actual God or maybe some alien impersonating him to exploit humanity weakness?), the whole thing would give out slavery vibes even more.

[TD1]

If said God came with a promise of an after life, or some form of reward/punishment in return for worship, he would get a sizeable amount of takers. I mean, how many Christians would there be without heaven/hell?

I still wouldn't worship it though. I'd try to understand it, sure, but why would I want to do anything else? The only reason such a being would be followed would be because it has power. Personally, a Supreme Leader/Almighty isn't on my list of priorities - I wouldn't blindly follow Kim Jung Un either.

[Amperzand]

I'd probably convert to whatever the relevant religion happened to be.

In the event that the existence of YHWH was proven to be false (I believe this to be impossible, mind you, so I can't really see it happening), I'd have to find some other way to achieve immortality.

I mean, yeah, to be clear, I don't necessarily think proving any of this stuff is remotely possible, but saying we somehow managed it.

Depends on which supernatural entity/what relevance said entity had. I'm less straight atheist and more mysotheistic agnostic.

Sounds a lot like me, yes.

I was basically just referring to any given supernatural entity powerful enough to be a genuine God, as opposed to, say, the wendigo, or Jesus and Buddha, both of whom totally existed, though I do contest their semi-divine nature.

[Descan]

Even ignoring all the shit in all the holy books (whichever God it turns out to be, most holy books write them out to be total assholes) the world as it is, from human nature being so... human, to the laws of physics allowing us to see all the wonder of the universe while still gluing us to this rock, to the various horrifying diseases and parasites in the world, to the fact that he didn't decide "Hey maybe I should tell EVERY group about me!" thus causing horrendous holy wars...

Even if god were real, he's too much of a c*** for me to even acknowledge her, let alone worship them.