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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 681400 times)

Rolepgeek

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4995 on: January 28, 2016, 11:02:28 pm »

Actually wait a minute

You just told someone that they're getting hung up on semantics

And then use a definition pulled directly out of a dictionary without really putting thought into it

Orange Wizard, I am disappoint.

All I can really say at this point is that if you're going to define away the solution (eg. only magical outside source can give us free will somehow), then...I mean, really now, people. When someone says everything will turn out the same, I bring up quantum randomness having sequentially larger effects, particularly due to mutations of the genome (though I didn't get into precisely that detail), they say that doesn't count because we don't control it. Free will is the space between determinism and randomness. Plus, we are our brains and nervous systems and other assortments of cellular tissue. As long as that is free to act as it will, and thus we are free to act as we will, without a magical outside source forcing us to behave a certain way, we have free will. Otherwise, even with magical outside force giving us free will, you may as well say we don't have it because other people can affect us and force us to do things, and we still have to breathe and eat and blah blah blah.
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Rolan7

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4996 on: January 28, 2016, 11:05:45 pm »

Can I choose not to care about this argument over a poorly defined concept?
I'm not sure, but here we are.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4997 on: January 28, 2016, 11:09:42 pm »

I don't care about it and I'm happy about it whether I chose to or not. That's what really matters.
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4998 on: January 28, 2016, 11:14:51 pm »

Can I choose not to care about this argument over a poorly defined concept?
I'm not sure, but here we are.
Yeah, agreed...
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Rolan7

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4999 on: January 28, 2016, 11:21:07 pm »

I mean, to be fair, it is one of those grand philosophy questions supposedly.
But like a lot of philosophy questions, it seems to inevitably become a semantic argument because the concept has no universal meaning.  And a lot of personal interpretations.
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TD1

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5000 on: January 29, 2016, 06:56:48 am »

I always assumed that "free will" in the deterministic argument simply meant the absence of a determining force or "causer." Free will as basically the definition of non-deterministic.

I'm beginning to see it may be slightly more nuanced than that. :P
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5001 on: January 29, 2016, 07:04:40 am »

...Incidentally, I met a Coptic yesterday. Really nice guy.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5002 on: January 29, 2016, 07:45:47 am »

...Incidentally, I met a Coptic yesterday. Really nice guy.
Closest I've ever gotten to meeting a Coptic was a funeral

Ghills

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5003 on: February 01, 2016, 05:04:35 pm »

The LDS position on choices and free will is that the whole point of this life is to prove whether or not we will, when outside of God's presence and unaware of His majesty, choose to follow Him.  His plan is for us to exercise our agency, much like parents plan space and time for their kids to practice and learn walking. 

Relevant quotes:
"Your Heavenly Father has given you agency, the ability to choose right from wrong and to act for yourself. You have been given the Holy Ghost to help you know good from evil. While you are here on earth, you are being proven to see if you will use your agency to show your love for God by keeping His commandments." 

“Our agency, given us through the plan of our Father, is the great alternative to Satan’s plan of force. With this sublime gift, we can grow, improve, progress, and seek perfection. Without agency, none of us could grow and develop by learning from our mistakes and errors and those of others.”

“Because the eternal principle of agency gives us the freedom to choose and think for ourselves, we should become increasingly able to solve problems. We may make the occasional mistake, but as long as we are following gospel principles and guidelines, we can learn from those mistakes and become more understanding of others and more effective in serving them.”

https://www.lds.org/topics/agency/what-the-church-teaches?lang=eng

Frustratingly, if God intervened on the basis of 'this decision will have horrible consequences', the whole point of this life would be wasted.  He will help people bear their burdens and be healed through the Atonement, but He can't thwart the entire reason He set this earth up.  Well, He could, but then He would be changeable and cease to be God. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/morm/9.19?lang=eng

Other relevant LDS doctrines: We believe we have a duty to relieve suffering, not increase it. Our baptismal covenants are to bear others' burdens, mourn with those that mourn, comfort those who stand in need of comfort, etc.  It's our job to help those who need help, not to judge them - God is the judge and we shouldn't usurp that.   
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 05:13:01 pm by Ghills »
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Bohandas

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5004 on: February 04, 2016, 11:11:40 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It seems I owe Loud Whispers an apology. According to the documentary "American Experience: The Poisoner's Handbook" poisoning, radium poisoning specifically, can indeed kill a person several years after the poison is ingested (although it also notes that this is effectively unheard of in poisons and makes clear that it the particular poison mentioned by the documentary in this context, radium, effectively always takes a long time to kill)

So apparently I jumped the gun saying there's no way this could happen; sorry.

(I still think it's unlikely though)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 11:26:53 pm by Bohandas »
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5005 on: February 04, 2016, 11:14:37 pm »

That'd be radiation poisoning, then?
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Bohandas

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5006 on: February 04, 2016, 11:37:32 pm »

That'd be radiation poisoning, then?

Only partially.

If I understand their explanation correctly the type of radium poisoning they were talking about is not radiation poisoning from the initial exposure to the radiation given off by radium, but rather the result of ingested radium; which tenaciously stays in the body and and 1) Continually irradiating it from within and 2) Being incorporated into bone and other tissues in place of calcium and then decaying into other elements that are no longer chemically similar to calcium, thus disrupting the function of whatever it's been incorporated into.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5007 on: February 05, 2016, 12:00:50 am »

Neat.
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Putnam

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5008 on: February 05, 2016, 04:06:04 am »

On-topic, free will: seems obviously false to me. There's nothing that could create free will that I know of within our current models of physics, and our current models of physics are hilariously accurate on the level of brains and neurons that make them up.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 04:09:58 am by Putnam »
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #5009 on: February 05, 2016, 04:21:07 am »

Here's what Putnam's replying to above:
i care greatly what they actually believe in because there's shit like every major abrahamic holy book saying explicitly to kill people who don't believe in what you do, which is a Very Bad Thing

...

Quote
Deuteronomy 13:6-11
Suppose someone secretly entices you—even your brother, your son or daughter, your beloved wife, or your closest friend—and says, ‘Let us go worship other gods’—gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known. They might suggest that you worship the gods of peoples who live nearby or who come from the ends of the earth. But do not give in or listen. Have no pity, and do not spare or protect them. You must put them to death! Strike the first blow yourself, and then all the people must join in. Stone the guilty ones to death because they have tried to draw you away from the Lord your God, who rescued you from the land of Egypt, the place of slavery. Then all Israel will hear about it and be afraid, and no one will act so wickedly again.
and now the all-benevolent, infallible god can change his mind? how curious.
Short answer: Yes

Long answer: The basic principle on how one should behave has stayed the same. What's changing is the covenant God is operating within. In the Old Testament, we have the Covenant of Works, which is God saying "do what I say or I'll smite you, also racial purity and blood sacrifice". Often expressed by attempted genocide of neighbouring people, mountains of foreskins, and similarly brutal things.
The (slightly) newer Covenant of Faith (i.e. what Christ established) changes the basis of how God works from a very Earth-centric view to a Heaven-centric view. God no longer requires the brutal OT stuff from his followers. Basically, it's a different religion.
Don't ask me why it's that way, though. I might actually try to answer >.>
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Please don't shitpost, it lowers the quality of discourse
Hard science is like a sword, and soft science is like fear. You can use both to equally powerful results, but even if your opponent disbelieve your stabs, they will still die.
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