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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 687495 times)

Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4785 on: January 18, 2016, 05:52:06 pm »

My apologies. In this thread, allegiance can change in the blink of the eye. :P
And I still can't work out which side I'm supposed to be on.

...

Ha, the "blame the Jew" game again. Can't say i'm too surprised.
Wait, what? I'm confused.
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TD1

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4786 on: January 18, 2016, 05:56:47 pm »

My apologies. In this thread, allegiance can change in the blink of the eye. :P
That makes me uncomfortable.

This should not be about "allegiance"s. This should be about Truth. It should not be about sides or tribes or affiliations. This is a discussion thread, not an argument or a verbal war or even technically a debate.

We should not be attempting to score points, or look the smartest, or whatever, which we're probably all doing subconsciously at minimum. We should be trying to learn, and to share information.
Well, yes. But we have allegiances to differing forms of "truth." My one, for example, is truth. But it's my take on it - others have allegiances to different takes, often in the form of organised religion.

My apologies. In this thread, allegiance can change in the blink of the eye. :P
And I still can't work out which side I'm supposed to be on.

I know, I still wonder whether you're going to turn out to be my cavalry, or the enemy's.  ;)
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4787 on: January 18, 2016, 06:12:42 pm »

No, I think it's that they understand that he is, and that poison doesn't work like that. here are also poisons that cause permanent damage to one's health, but they can't suddenly cause more damage years after having left your system. Yes, there are poisons that stay in your system, mercury comes to mind, but to my knowledge they generally don't just suddenly up and kill you three years later after years of the symptoms remaining stable and no additional poison being ingested; the issue with mercury is that generally one is exposed to it repetedly and it builds up in increasing quantities.
The story only makes sense if he had already suffered fatal damage and completed the last three years as some sort of undead creature or revenant until the blessing of the lord left him.
Is no one even reading the quotes

Why do I bother

fml

Quote
An attempt on the life of Mohammed was made at Khaibar by a Jewish woman named Zainab, who, in revenge for the death of her male relatives in battle, put poison in a dish prepared by her for the prophet. One of Mohammed's followers who par-took of the food died almost immediately afterward; but the prophet, who had eaten more sparingly, escaped. He, however, complained of the effects of the poison to the end of his life.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10918-mohammed

Bishar and Muhammed both ate the poisoned lamb. Bishar died almost instantaneously, turning green, whilst Muhammed who ate lesser amounts of the lamb and poison survived - though he complained of its symptoms until his death. Ibn Sa'd recalls that the people thought it was pleurisy, an illness affecting the lungs that can cause a constant dull ache, shortness of breath and premature death. Bishar turning green would support their speculation that it was a failure of the lungs. Muhammed complained that he felt as if his aorta/jugular vein was severed, an expression used to indicate extreme pain (not literal severing of either).
Off of a very brief search that I'm sure summons the NSA, something like arsenic which was commonly known from Rome to China could in higher concentrations cause rapid death in higher concentrations, green skin discoloration, and in survivors of lower concentrations lead to permanent nerve damage, renal failure, liver failure, chronic respiratory illnesses and a whole host of other symptoms which would kill you later and lead to a premature death.
And that's the most basic bitch of poisons, the Arabian peninsula bordered the Romans and Persians both with their own rich poisoning traditions and the Arabs clearly had access to their own poisons too, as with the assassination of Ali. It is nonsense to see only the possibility of either fatal wounding, perfect health or divine intervention; causing enough damage to the lungs (or the circulatory system and really anything else, no modern medicine to undo what has been done) to ensure death.

Ha, the "blame the Jew" game again. Can't say i'm too surprised.
Wait what, is this about the poison goat?  I skimmed those posts but I don't think the Jew thing was emphasized here...
You need to get that chip off your shoulder Vilanat, I mentioned her first as a tribeswoman just to step around calling her the Jewish woman or Jewess, and there are almost no other instances where I give a shit about "cultural sensitivity."
If you think I'm going to change the quotes though just to step around protecting your feelings, I stop there. The Jewish Encyclopedia backs me on this; truth trumps muh feels.

Bohandas

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4788 on: January 18, 2016, 06:56:36 pm »

Ha, the "blame the Jew" game again. Can't say i'm too surprised.
Wait what, is this about the poison goat?  I skimmed those posts but I don't think the Jew thing was emphasized here...
You need to get that chip off your shoulder Vilanat, I mentioned her first as a tribeswoman just to step around calling her the Jewish woman or Jewess, and there are almost no other instances where I give a shit about "cultural sensitivity."
If you think I'm going to change the quotes though just to step around protecting your feelings, I stop there. The Jewish Encyclopedia backs me on this; truth trumps muh feels.

I think he means arabic literature blaming the jews again. Which it probably is. Why else would they even mention it?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4789 on: January 18, 2016, 07:10:41 pm »

I think he means arabic literature blaming the jews again. Which it probably is. Why else would they even mention it?
Because it's true and the historians were trying to add as much accurate and relevant informations to their histiography as possible, this line of thinking is both offensive and nonsensical. Ha! There's something you don't see everyday, me taking the moral highground on defending Arab Muslims with indignant cultural sensitivity, in this moment I am enlightened by my TOLERAN and PROGRESIV ;D;
"Oh yes, why would they even mention who ordered Jesus's crucifixion, it's because they were SEKRIT SELF HATING JEWS?!!!"
"Why do they even mention Umar's assassin being Persian? FOKIN RACISTS AMIRITE?"

And because I only ever get to say things like this once per year, reevaluate your prejudices and check your privilege LOL

If in future this impacts my edgy cred, my alibi is that this is all about ETHICS and reporting trufacts, we not going full Swede polis here

Rolepgeek

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4790 on: January 18, 2016, 07:25:11 pm »

Don't worry, LW, you used enough ALLCAPS to safeguard your credge.

Though I'm sorta confused as to why there's so much contention over this. Why does it matter who/what killed the Last True Prophet No For Real This Time Guys?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4791 on: January 18, 2016, 07:41:25 pm »

Don't worry, LW, you used enough ALLCAPS to safeguard your credge.
Though I'm sorta confused as to why there's so much contention over this. Why does it matter who/what killed the Last True Prophet No For Real This Time Guys?
I have no idea, it all stemmed from a focus on this part of my post in particular (bolded):
When God does that in the OT, it's not for people he pities, it's for awful people who live to sin #yolo
The whole point of the Noah's Ark spinoff is that by the end God leaves a promise to not destroy most of humanity again, and so tries to help mankind out by sending prophets instead of plagues, leading into the failed prophet sagas where humans keep killing them (lol) leading to Jesus (where they kill him) but that time everything is successful, all the way up to the last prophet in Islam (killed him too) though you get many many many spinoffs with alleged descendants, siblings, not-prophets and of course all three branches of Abrahamism all hold the option for further sequels with their own ends of this age to the new Godly one
I didn't expect this part of my post to be the one everyone wanted to talk about lol, though I suppose this issue would've ended earlier had someone not gone on wikipedia and edited in some very bizarre narrative sourced from a European introduction to the Quran written in 1895 o_O

Also if you want a prophet who died of old age, Moses the grizzly guts was supposedly 120 when he dropped dead climbing a mountain to see the promised land - dying in sight, but out of reach of it. God had a funny sense of humour like that

Also on the topic of Arabian access to poison, I also forgot to mention that when Umar was assassinated the blade he was assassinated was also coated in poison, though the dagger wounds sufficed - even poor slaves could buy poisons from which there'd be no survival

*EDIT
Seriously who the hell thought it was a bright idea to ignore all the Hadiths or Arab scholars in favour of this weak sauce
*EDITx2
Looked into who wrote the Introduction to the Quran II (1895): Gustav Weil, German Orientalist:
"Being destined for the rabbinate, he was taught Hebrew, as well as German and French; and he received instruction in Latin from the minister of his native town. At the age of twelve he went to Metz, where his grandfather was rabbi, to study the Talmud. For this, however, he developed very little taste, and he abandoned his original intention of entering upon a theological career.

(...)While pursuing these studies Weil published his "Historisch-Kritische Einleitung in den Koran" (Bielefeld and Leipsic, 1844 and 1878) as a supplement to Ullman's translation of the Koran, and the translation of one of the original sources of the biography of Mohammed, "Leben Mohammed's nach Muhammed ibn Isḥaḳ, Bearbeitet von Abd el-Malik ibn Hischâm" (Stuttgart, 2 vols., 1864). Three additional essays remain to be mentioned: one on Mohammed's epilepsy ("Journal Asiatique," July, 1842); the second an investigation of a "Supposed Lie of Mohammed" (ib. May, 1849); and the third a discussion of the question whether Mohammed could read and write ("Proceedings of the Congress of Orientalists at Florence," i. 357). To these must be added "Biblische Legenden der Mohammedaner" (Frankfort, 1845), in which Weil proves the influence of the rabbinic legends upon the religion of Islam."

LMAO, peeps here accusing the Arabs of distorting history and here there's some shifty bugger using a century's old German Jewish Orientalist's take on the Quran as targeted for Western academia during the height of new Imperialism that happens to leave out the part where Zainab was Jewish
Pure coincidence lel
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 07:54:27 pm by Loud Whispers »
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Rolan7

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4792 on: January 18, 2016, 08:02:55 pm »

Also if you want a prophet who died of old age, Moses the grizzly guts was supposedly 120 when he dropped dead climbing a mountain to see the promised land - dying in sight, but out of reach of it. God had a funny sense of humour like that
You know, it's kinda funny...  God told Moses that he wouldn't reach the promised land.  Or specifically, that he wouldn't bring the community to it.  (Numbers 20:12).  I wonder how many of the Isrealites knew about that prophecy (presumably enough to write it down after his death).  Seems like the obvious choice would be to expel him - he did kinda take credit for a miracle *while* disobeying God:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Moses-promised-land.html

Another possibility would have been stepping down so someone else could lead, which would possibly allow him to enter the promised land after all.  But I guess everyone was content to follow the leader who couldn't possibly succeed :P

I mean, he did summon water out of a stone and do some crazy shit in Egypt.  Maybe they were confused that his powers came from God (they were so eager to worship gold cows, a wizard seems like a step up).
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4793 on: January 18, 2016, 09:08:07 pm »

Good heavens trawling through the edit history of Muhammed is a thing of beauteous wonder, there are edit wars within edit wars

My favourite one has to be the endless battle between those editing pbuh after every mention of his name and removing pbuh after every time it's edited back on
As far as I can tell using the wayback machine to roughly pinpoint when Gustav Weil appeared as a cited source for Muhammed's death, it's around 2006 somewhere

Some hilarious differences I've found:

Criticism of Muhammad has existed since the 7th century. He has been attacked by his non-Muslim Arab contemporaries for preaching monotheism, as well as for his multiple marriages, possession of slaves and his military expeditions across the Middle East. - 2015
According to the nineteenth-century colonial administrator William Muir, Muhammad in Mecca was a man of good faith, but after the Hijra, he says, "There [in Medina] temporal power, aggrandisement, and self-gratification mingled rapidly with the grand object of the Prophet's life, and they were sought and attained by just the same instrumentality." Muir accuses Muhammad of manufacturing messages from heaven.[80]Other criticism is over Muhammad's marriages, especially with Aisha whom, according to hadith, was six when Muhammad did the marriage contract with her father and started living together when she became nine.[81][82][83][84] - 2006

2006 didn't pull any punches, by 2015 all the editors became pussies

Within Islam, he is considered the last and most important prophet of God (Arabic Allah).[7] Muslims do not regard him as the founder of a new religion but as the restorer of the original monotheistic faith of Adam, Abraham and other prophets whose messages had become misinterpreted or corrupted over time.[8][9][10][11][12] - 2006
The revelations (each known as Ayah, lit. "Sign [of God]"), which Muhammad reported receiving until his death, form the verses of the Quran, regarded by Muslims as the "Word of God" and around which the religion is based. Besides the Quran, Muhammad's teachings and practices (sunnah), found in the Hadith and sira literature, are also upheld by Muslims and used as sources of Islamic law (see Sharia). While conceptions of Muhammad in medieval Christendom were largely negative, appraisals in modern history have been far more favorable.[14][20] Other appraisals of Muhammad throughout history, such as those found in medieval China, have also been positive.[21][22][23][24][25] - 2015

I knew Wikipedia was a battleground of biases but I didn't realize it was this retarded, whole swathes of information just disappear depending on who makes the edits, and such information does not reappear, or else a lie appears and takes its place with vigor for years unto today

Plus the usernames are hilarious, lots of Bergs, Sciences, and Truths + something else

And I've felt a deep companionship, a thorough connection with one I shall never meet - God forgive, Yahweh be merciful, Allah bless and Brahma accept Yahel Guhan into your domains.

Quote
This user is no longer active on Wikipedia as of July 2008.

To anyone who reads this, please note that my reasoning does not apply to everyone who edits wikipedia, though it applies to enough of the editors to make a difference.

For three years I have wasted hours time on wikipedia editing and trying to resolve some of its problems, and what do I get for it? Absolutely nothing but hassle and stress, while watching all my hard work get reverted by some political activist who disagrees with me. Well I’m sick and tired of it. I’m done trying to fight political activists who have nothing better to do in their sorry lives than promote their most radical political views (usually by means of censorship and making crap up). I’m done reverting vandals who add racial slurs to articles, and people who just make stuff up which never gets reverted, and racists who insist on having their perspective promoted, usually through fighting and persistence. Now, I will admit I am not unbiased, but I have realized that in order to get anything done here, I have found myself taking a stand far more radical than my actual beliefs just to balance out some of the radical activists. Well I’m sick and tired of it. Wikipedia users and administrators do next to nothing to resolve the problems with this wiki, and some are even part of the problem. Hardly anybody gets blocked once they become well established, or a so-called “respected editor.” It is virtually impossible to de-sysop a corrupt or bad admin, and even tougher to get rid of an editor. Well I have learned one thing from this above all else. An encyclopedia that anybody can edit does not come out with good results. Anybody can edit anonymously means just that. Anybody, no matter how radical their views are, can come to wikipedia to do whatever they want. After editing, and seeing what a cesspool wikipedia is, it amazes me how people ever trusted some of the crap is posted here on wikipedia. I’m done trying to fix it. The wiki is not fixable, as many of the editors are part of the problem. The sooner the so-called wikipedia community realizes that, the better the wiki will be in the long run.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Yahel_Guhan
You brave keyboard gatekeeper, you tried to achieve the futile, and your efforts were forgotten until this day, where some random anon did tear at the heroic sacrifices you made on behalf of humanity... In vain.
I shed two tears, one from each eye. An effort was made, a valiant effort. Yahel Guhan, rest easy retired, you've fought as a keyboard soldier and done your time in hell, shitpost in peace.
Also lol looking up Yahel Guhan he was a pro-choice, pro death-penalty, Jewish atheist in favour of world government butting heads with the likes of Truthseekers, self-described adherents of "Muslim Nation", or the interesting battle to delete, edit or support the page on Naveed Afzal Haq

I'm getting too sidetracked and I need to sleep anyways; though I sleep knowing I was vindicated. It is interesting to note that Yahel (who notes this themself)  their views grew more extreme in response to continually battling against opposing extreme views, where Yahel went from being as biased as a soft idealist liberal to by the end being a world government death-penalty abortion supporting nihilist abandoning their passion as a futile endeavor plagued with psyops

Wikipedia actually crushed Yahel's hope in humanity

How the fuck can anyone dare to trust that piece of shit, let alone cite it before my eyeballs, is beyond me - beyond Yahel

Rolepgeek

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4794 on: January 18, 2016, 09:27:54 pm »

Non-controversial subjects, usually. The differences in the things you showed weren't that big. Take it with a grain of salt, cite it for basic quotes and the like; it's not great for stuff that's been politicized but on other stuff it's probably decently reliable. Anonymous editors just means every bias gets represented, instead of only some. The hope is that, like democracy, it ends up averaging out to unbiased.

At least, I think that's more or less it. I could be wrong. But I mean, the same criticisms could apply to the internet at large, really.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4795 on: January 18, 2016, 09:33:06 pm »

WIKIPEDIA CRUSHED HIS HOPE IN HUMANITY

Non-controversial subjects, usually. The differences in the things you showed weren't that big. Take it with a grain of salt, cite it for basic quotes and the like; it's not great for stuff that's been politicized but on other stuff it's probably decently reliable. Anonymous editors just means every bias gets represented, instead of only some. The hope is that, like democracy, it ends up averaging out to unbiased.
The average between a truth and a lie is a lie, the average between a lie and a lie is also still a lie
I can't show you a difference between the wikipedia pages on the death of Muhammed because before the 1895 source shows up the same narrative is used, just unsourced and with less words

At least, I think that's more or less it. I could be wrong. But I mean, the same criticisms could apply to the internet at large, really.
The stuff I've shown were small

Sit down and trawl

T R A W L

DO IT

WIKIPEDIA WILL CRUSH YOUR HOPE TOO

CRUSH YOU    A L L

Rolepgeek

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4796 on: January 18, 2016, 09:54:44 pm »

Putting things in capitals actually makes it carry less weight, if you're trying to convince me, in much the same way that my ability to actually care about someone's opinion is downgraded when they use more than two exclamation points. Two might be an accidental thing, though if it's consistent I also find it suspicious.

That out of the way. If you trawl the internet, you will find much the same thing, is my point. We still consider the internet acceptable to use. Citations are necessary for a reason. Look at the citations.

Also, the average between a truth and a lie depends largely on the nature of the subject in question. But that's beside the point. We aren't averaging truth and lies. We're averaging one perspective which is warped and another perspective which is warped. Two warped perspectives, if warped in opposite directions, can in fact average out to something fairly close to the truth.

Wikipedia is as reliable as the internet in general is. It's not great, but there's pieces that are worth it, and dismissing anything that uses it without followup is a mistake, just as using it without followup is a mistake.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4797 on: January 18, 2016, 10:07:20 pm »

Wikipedia has never been a reliable source though? I mean, it's great as a general reference, but no-one, ever, has considered acceptable to cite it as a source. Even Wikipedia rejects Wikipedia as a source.

E: Hang on, this is getting kinda meta.
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4798 on: January 18, 2016, 10:10:08 pm »

How meta is asking how meta this has gotten, then?
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4799 on: January 18, 2016, 10:10:21 pm »

E: Hang on, this is getting kinda meta.
As long as it doesn't get physical
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