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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 681448 times)

wierd

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4740 on: January 17, 2016, 07:31:43 pm »

Wierd, you seem to have seen the Christian God and reasoned him into an extradimensional box where anything can be true. Given that all the dealings he's had have been very dimensional and within the scope of human reason, this seems unlikely. That is, if you believe in the general gist of the Bible - if not, then you cease to be speaking of the Christian God.

Also, out of curiosity, is God chilling in his extradimensional heaven with the odd visit to the equally extradimensional Brahman in Paranirvana? :P

As for God being a non-sentient force, the Trinity show some form of sentience.

It helps that similar arguments were raised in the NT, and christ basically says "Yo dog, the father's residence is in heaven, not on earth, and is of a spiritual nature, not a physical one."

Quote

Luke 17:20-21King James Version (KJV)

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

If it does not exist in physical reality (The universe), where else can it exist, except outside of it?
That assumes that it is a "real" place, and not merely imaginary. The quotation does not give much illumination on that subject. However, with other context in the bible, it is strongly implied to be "real", just not a physical place you can point to and say 'See, here it is!"

So, since the bible literally says that you cannot find heaven by searching the physical world, any argument against its existence not being in the physical world (and thus not real) do not follow. The bible outright says as much. Stop being tautological. :P  If the christian god exists, he is most assuredly extradimensional.
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Bohandas

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4741 on: January 17, 2016, 07:37:27 pm »

Just a small aside, not said within the context of any ongoing conversation - I was contemplating that Annihilation Theory, and thinking that it - for me - is worse than hell. A more complete punishment. A profound shame, and a decisive obliteration of mind, matter and spirit. In the poem Reading Gaol, the hanged man is shamed by being buried with quick lime so nothing will remain of him, not even flesh.

Of course, such a view is what atheists tend to favour, myself included, only without the God factor. It is a terrible thing, and I wish for myself to be wrong. Unfortunately, wishes aren't horses, I guess.

Agreed.
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wierd

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4742 on: January 17, 2016, 07:41:03 pm »

In what way is being tortured eternally better than being unmade?

In the fact that you are able to continue experiencing and thinking? I dont know about you, but I would find final cessation of cognition far superior to having the only things I experience be pain, suffering, and remorse, with a heavy sauce of hopelessness.


edit

Even if you go all Kurzwiel and plan on "living forever" as a transhuman consciousness that now runs on a non-living, mechanical platform, you still have the whole "heat death of the universe" thing to deal with.  So, it does not satisfy being truly immortal the way religion describes and promises it.  The only way you get that, is with a universe that does not match the parameters of the one we currently find ourselves in.


« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 07:46:58 pm by wierd »
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4743 on: January 17, 2016, 07:51:30 pm »

Also, there's plenty of people who convert because they believe God's spoken to them. So that second part isn't quite true. I mean, if you had a vision or a dream like that, would you assume you were hallucinating, or that god was talking to you? Why bother making you think you have hallucinations when you won't even believe it?
A being with the experience of everyone and forever should be able to convince me, with my decade and most of another one. It's like how teachers take the responsibility for the learning of very young children, except massively more so. Or alternatively could just pull a Pharaoh and make people believe it.
He's shown that that's not his gig. Otherwise, original sin would never have occurred. Free will is an important thing, because otherwise you're not a person, you're a machine.

Quote from: Graknorke
And...there were a lot of plagues and 'proof's from Old Testament and New, if I remember right. I mean, the argument that God really needs to update his shit if he is real is a fair one, but that's not quite the same thing.
I meant as in, things for historians that would write it down in proper historical texts rather than a religious one with an obvious agenda. It's not as though there weren't any around.
And also things that should be impossible but there's credible evidence of them having happened, rather than things that are just a bit odd. Like the global flood except if there was any reason to think it actually happened. Plagues and earthquakes aren't exactly supernatural, maybe they thought so at the time but we know better than that now.
2000+ years is a while, and from what I remember, there's a decent chunk of apologist argumentation that basically says that enough people claim the miracles happened in the historical texts that it is less unlikely for it to be true than that they were lying. And if you're going to say 'well but that's conceivable of happening anyway', then you're not actually arguing in good faith. Disputing accuracy of bible, sure, whatever. But 'even if they did happen, god didn't do it, they're too likely to have happened' is a flawed argument. Because the easy answer is 'they aren't always supernatural, no.'

In what way is being tortured eternally better than being unmade?

In the fact that you are able to continue experiencing and thinking? I dont know about you, but I would find final cessation of cognition far superior to having the only things I experience be pain, suffering, and remorse, with a heavy sauce of hopelessness.
The Absurd Hero. I take comfort in my defiance of the inevitable. And that sustains me. :P Besides, where there is existence, there is hope.

Also, there's plenty of people who convert because they believe God's spoken to them. So that second part isn't quite true. I mean, if you had a vision or a dream like that, would you assume you were hallucinating, or that god was talking to you? Why bother making you think you have hallucinations when you won't even believe it?
False dichotomy. While anyone who realizes the implications of solipsism could, if sufficiently reticent, dismiss any divine experience as a hallucination no matter how significant, that could also apply to literally anything but their own qualia. Almost all people can still be convinced by experience, that experience just has to fit the magnitude of the claim and not demonstrate signs of falsehood. Dreams and visions are already the realm of hallucination, even people who believe in divine vision will admit this for other religions.

Even a dank euphoric atheist like me could be persuaded of at least the substantial power and existence of the Christian God with a satisfying display, but that display is not "I prayed for something plausible and then it happened" or "My terminal illness went away on its own". Try "resurrecting someone who's already started rotting or was cremated" or "rearrange some stars to spell out a Bible verse or a secret only I could know about".
The ramifications of doing so could easily outweigh the benefits in converting one person. How many people will lose faith in their understanding of reality and try and find some other explanation? The plurality of the world is Christianity, so if they're likely to convert away...You want independently verifiable events, because ones that aren't might just be hallucination. But independently verifiable events by nature mean other people have to be involved, and maybe that would go badly. Maybe your atheism will convert more people, in the end, through butterfly effects, than if you weren't. God's responsibility to his creations is not towards you individually. It is towards humanity as a whole. I was pointing out how you were saying that only people who already believe in God hear from Him was not quite true, if you think they're all being honest/factual in their recounting of events (hallucinations can be convincing, man).
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Graknorke

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4744 on: January 17, 2016, 08:03:31 pm »

Free will is an important thing, because otherwise you're not a person, you're a machine.
It's not a violation of free will to change someone's opinion. You're not actually making them do anything. And people are also machines, they're hardly mutually exclusive.

As for the good faith thing, it's basically impossible to talk about Biblical accuracy in good faith, given that a good portion of the participants are going to claim it's true regardless of how true it actually is so long as it's possible. And actually, even if it's impossible. It's just circles of the same points over and over and eventually everyone ends up having gone nowhere.
And do you have anything on well-reported miracles? I'd like to read about them.
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wierd

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4745 on: January 17, 2016, 08:15:23 pm »

Good luck on reputable sources for biblical miracles. It's hard enough getting reputable sources on christ himself existing.

(IIRC, this thread already went there. I was able to give two sources, one stronger than the other, confirming the existence of a figure meeting jesus's description. Both have potential sources of detraction.)

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Rolepgeek

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4746 on: January 17, 2016, 08:22:09 pm »

Free will is an important thing, because otherwise you're not a person, you're a machine.
It's not a violation of free will to change someone's opinion. You're not actually making them do anything. And people are also machines, they're hardly mutually exclusive.

As for the good faith thing, it's basically impossible to talk about Biblical accuracy in good faith, given that a good portion of the participants are going to claim it's true regardless of how true it actually is so long as it's possible. And actually, even if it's impossible. It's just circles of the same points over and over and eventually everyone ends up having gone nowhere.
And do you have anything on well-reported miracles? I'd like to read about them.
No, I don't, other than maybe the ones that 'happen' nowadays, which are usually proven false. I was pointing out that that line of argument is actually one that does get used and has some backing.

'Basically impossible because a lot of people argue in a specific way which isn't arguing in good faith'. If you assume the bible is false, no argument needs to be made. If you're saying you want them to prove God exists from a position of assuming the bible is false, it's kinda impossible. You can't prove the Biblical god exists if your basis is the Bible being false. But besides that, 'it's basically impossible to argue that with other people' does not lead to 'it's impossible to argue that here'.

I'm arguing here for the grounds that it's not an open/shut case of what religion/is any religion true. Not that it is true, just that it's not as easy as 'ope Bible got something wrong, time to toss it out'. We don't usually do that with science, and if the field of theology is relevant to the functional workings of the universe, there's no reason to believe that, either.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4747 on: January 17, 2016, 08:38:23 pm »

Took down the religion poll (it's been up for ages and numbers haven't moved much for a while; results are in the OP) and put up a poll on free will (seeing as everyone keeps talking about it).
I'll change the questions if people think they're unsuitable. I felt that was the most concise way of getting the point across, but YMMV.
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4748 on: January 17, 2016, 08:42:29 pm »

You forgot agnostics.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4749 on: January 17, 2016, 08:43:11 pm »

That would be "not religious", no? I mean, it's kinda the same thing as atheist for the purpose, I think.
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4750 on: January 17, 2016, 08:43:58 pm »

That would be "not religious", no?
No, that's "Not sure I'm religious and" I'd think?
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4751 on: January 17, 2016, 08:45:41 pm »

I'm not really convinced, but if there are other people who want it I'll add the option.
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origamiscienceguy

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4752 on: January 17, 2016, 09:13:33 pm »

For the life of Jesus and his miracles, you would have to assume that all 4 gospel writers were lying. However, people seem to take other much-less evidence texts as more reliable than the new testament. For example, the Trojan War. If you compare the reliability of the works that describe the battle of troy and the new testament, it is almost laughable to assume that the new testament is fabricated because you would have to how out practically every ancient writing as well. And to assume that all 4 of the gospel authors lied is also laughable since they each died very painful deaths (except maybe Luke) and you would assume they would stop lying if they were threatened with death.
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4753 on: January 17, 2016, 09:34:29 pm »

Lying, or mistaken, or caught up in religious mania the same as any modern person can be, or mentally ill, or none of this actually happened, or any combination of the previous, or all of the other Gospels are just obvious modifications from Luke which is nearly devoid of supernatural elements and created the more typical elements of the Jesus story 50 years after the fact, which is also a weird way to go about writing something so miraculous even if it were to be true.

And most ancient writings are horribly unreliable. Cross-referencing sources that don't have motives to support each other is the typical way to tell what's probably true and probably isn't.

Also, "die for a lie" is a worthless argument both for the alternate motives I've outlined above, but also because it wouldn't be the go-to strategy to "stop lying" after they've already openly defied the order of the day. The way to get out of it, if they were knowing liars, would be to try to push through and convince the rest of your sincerity, power, or whatever you can use to get leverage. It's like saying OJ Simpson should have confessed to the murders he clearly committed to try and get out of going to prison. It's a gamble, but one many both huckster and non-huckster alike have long taken.
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4754 on: January 17, 2016, 09:51:06 pm »

And to assume that all 4 of the gospel authors lied is also laughable since they each died very painful deaths (except maybe Luke) and you would assume they would stop lying if they were threatened with death.

Imagine yourself in the place of the Apostles, after the Crucifixion. Your great saviour is dead, his followers will lose faith in the face of persecution or die out. You're hiding out, but you know it can't last. So what can you do to do what Jesus would have wanted you to? Lie. Say he rose from the dead and promised to return. Keep hope alive for the rest of the Christians. Keep up the act, even unto death, so that more may come to learn the Saviours' teachings and be saved.



Not saying the above's what happened, but things are always more complicated then two or three or even five or six possibilities could account for. Don't make the mistake of oversimplifying things to make something you want to be true seem more plausible.
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