When I send my Dorfs to dig a tunnel and they go berserk and drown everyone that does not necessarily mean it was my intention for them to do so, though it was in their capacity to do so
But if you also designed the dorf's AI then you're going to have a fair idea of what they're likely to do
This. It's come up in the thread a few times by now I believe, but the idea is that God knows exactly what Satan will do under all circumstances, so by engineering the circumstances like He did, He effectively made Satan for that purpose. Otherwise He could have done things differently.
Unless you subscribe to the idea that God isn't omniscient or omnipotent, which again might not be an unreasonable claim. As has been discussed so many times in this thread, making God less than omnipotent, omniscient or omnibenevolent removes a lot of these issues.
Either way, God probably had a very, very good idea of what would happen. Depending on whether you believe God to be omniscient, it's kind of like writing a book and making Satan the designated villain, or creating a video game character with a high level of jealousy / ambition / pride, making him second banana and sitting back to watch the inevitable fireworks.
The bible says that God is good in several places. So either you believe that God and that bible are infallible, or both are not. And you and I are in the opposite boats.
I don't think it would be hard to accept that the Bible is fallible. If it can be mistranslated... isn't that already fallibility?
Also, one could always argue that God's definition of good is different from ours, I suppose. I've seen that argument floated a few times.
this is missing another obvious solution, and the solutions tendered, again, fall into the "good is defined by what makes my pleasure center activate", and not "satisfaction of god's wishes."
That missing option goes like this:
Yes, God created the adversary/satan for the purpose of testing human kind. The purpose of human kind is to ultimately become like god is, or as close as any created being can become so. Since God does not play the hipocrite, he does not violate his own rules or plans. This is ultimately why he does not tend toward producing flashy miracles, except where necessary to assure the culmination of this objective (No, he isnt going to bring your wife back from the dead just because you keep pestering him, etc. any more than the petulant 3 year old will get a 10lb bag of candy if they keep pestering thier parent. The parent may indulge on halloween, but once a year is very spread out in time to a 3 year old.) The way the world was created, was done purposefully and with foreknowledge of all events. God intervened when it was essential and necessary, knowing in advance what would be required, when and where. The assertion that since god knows this information, that he could have done "better", boils down to "better == activates my pleasure centers", and not "better == better at producing beings ultimately capable of properly being like him and living harmoniously like him."
Often used biblical example: spanking.
A parent can know, in advance, that a child is going to break a specific rule. Say, "dont take cookies from the cookie jar without permission." The temptation of cookies, to a very young child, may well be irresistable. The logic you are trying to use will paint any parent with a cookie jar in the home, who has kids, as an evil, mean parent if they likewise institute a "no sneaking cookies" rule. This makes sense if you are a butt hurt little kid, getting spanked for sneaking cookies; mommy and daddy are just plain meanies for having cookies in reach and not sharing them, and doubly so for KNOWING that you would want one, and that you would try to take one, and punishing you anyway with a slap on the bottom.
The parent has cookies as a "sometimes treat." They tell the child not to just take cookies, because they want the child to grow up to be a sensible adult with impulse control. They are well aware that the child will try to sneak the cookies, but keep both the cookie jar, and the no cookie sneaking rules. The parents are not evil, but instead loving, because they both provide cookies as is sensible, and also teach their child impulse control by discouraging hedonistic consumption.
Another may be the parent of a teenager, who knows the teen will try to sneak out of the house. Similar story there.
The argument that god, being all knowing and all powerful, can be neither because he fetters himself with internal rules to govern his actions, is absurd. I am capable or being a bank robber, but am not one because I choose not to be because I consider doing such things reprehensible for a wide assortment of reasons. Likewise, God does not do certain things, for similar reasons. I dont need to go rob a bank for you to prove that I am capable of being a bank robber. Why do you insist that God engage in highly contrary behavior to his objective goals just to satisfy you?
EG, please abandon "3 year old wants cookie damnit" mode.
God's plan is not for people to sit around all day strumming harps, but instead to rule the universe along side him as "adult" children. That is a very big responsibilty, and he provides ample testing in our mortal childhoods to assure we are ready for that task.
that's my take on the biblical narrative anyway.
Basic premise:
God has a complete and total understanding of sin, and willfully chooses to abstain from it, because he has determined that engaging in those kinds of actions has seriously negative consequences.
He intends for you to become like him, both in power and in mindset. He wants you to have a complete understanding of sin, and to willfully choose to abstain from it, having determined that engaging in those kinds of actions has seriously negative consequences.
To accomplish that goal, he created a testing center, the earth, to test his child-creations. He created the source of sin to seed the test environment with sin, so that his child-creations can experience it, and decide that yes-- sin is a bad thing and should be abstained from.
This process has unavoidable (since god does not break his own rules, despite being capable of doing so) consequences, such as people being addicted to sin, and choosing the very bad consequences instead of choosing to abstain. This is lamentable, and the bible has many references to god feeling great sadness over this. However it is again unavoidable for god to acheive his goal.
What is "good" by gods standard in this case, is for humans to learn about sin first hand, and choose to abstain from it. Not for humans to sin endlessly, and bitch about why god institutes consequences for it, or to bitch about how if god wants us to live sinless lives, why he introduced sin to us.
good != activates my pleasure centers
good == promotes responsible independent desicion making and behavior, in accordance with god.
sometimes being responsible is no fun at all. Accepting that is part of being responsible.
What greater responsibility is there than being a god? Maybe now you will better understand why god wants more then just a theoretical understanding of why sin is bad from you, and tests you on earth.
at least, that has been the deeper understanding I have gained from tearing at the bible anyway.
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