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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Fenrir]

I'm pretty sure the standard way Christians deal with god being the originator of sin is some "free-will" handwaving.

[Graknorke]

Oh yeah that's a thing, didn't someone say earlier that angels don't have free will? Wouldn't fallen angels mean that's not possible?

[Descan]

Angels don't have free will -> God causes them to fall

Satan is a fallen angel -> God causes Satan to fall

Satan is the cause of sin -> God is the cause of Satan -> God is the cause of sin

[TD1]

Angels don't have free will -> God causes them to fall

Satan is a fallen angel -> God causes Satan to fall

Satan is the cause of sin -> God is the cause of Satan -> God is the cause of sin

I haven't checked this thread in a bit, but that's what I was saying in my previous post.

[Loud Whispers]

I'm pretty sure the standard way Christians deal with god being the originator of sin is some "free-will" handwaving.

That's not what sin means though

[origamiscienceguy]

Lucifer is not the king of Babylon. He wanted to be the "most high" He wanted to be God

Isaiah 14:12-15 "How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How are you cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations! For you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet you shall be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

And God gave the Angels free will as well, and it was Satan's Pride (see above) that stated sin in the angels, and then brought it to humans. God didn't create Satan with sin, but he gave him free will which Satan used foolishly.

[Telgin]

Where did the idea that angels had no free will but humans did come from anyway?  Was it supposed to be part of the explanation on why God created humans when angels already existed?  I don't remember it ever being stated in the Bible anywhere at least.

God didn't create Satan with sin, but he gave him free will which Satan used foolishly.

Or is it possible that Satan was created to betray God to set things in motion?  After all, wouldn't Satan have known it was impossible to overthrow God?  What would the point have been?

I find it interesting that some people say that Judas effectively did the same thing and betrayed Jesus because he had to in order to move things along.  It's not a completely crazy viewpoint.

[martinuzz]

14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

The subject is a "man".  Note that angels have fearsome, inhuman visages such as being made of burning wheels.

When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. Then the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.  — Genesis 6:1-4

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_God
Clearly angels must have had more humanlike avatars. Kinda hard to make love to a burning wheel of fire. Being described as a man did not exclude angels back then.

[origamiscienceguy]

Where did the idea that angels had no free will but humans did come from anyway?  Was it supposed to be part of the explanation on why God created humans when angels already existed?  I don't remember it ever being stated in the Bible anywhere at least.

God didn't create Satan with sin, but he gave him free will which Satan used foolishly.

Or is it possible that Satan was created to betray God to set things in motion?  After all, wouldn't Satan have known it was impossible to overthrow God?  What would the point have been?

I find it interesting that some people say that Judas effectively did the same thing and betrayed Jesus because he had to in order to move things along.  It's not a completely crazy viewpoint.

Satan is not all knowing, so he did not know for certain that he couldn't overthrow God. He tied to get many angels on his side (there is a verse I think that says he got about 1/3 of all the angels) but God is all knowing, and all powerful so Satan didn't have a chance. Satan probably should have known that he couldn't ovethrow God, but his pride probably made him do foolish things.

[penguinofhonor]

This is the passage, relevant part bolded:

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Once again, it's highly metaphorical and pretty much everyone agrees it's talking about the apocalypse, not pre-genesis. But if you trust that John Milton was divinely inspired or just heard this cool story somewhere, it can be about Satan's Rebellion.

[Telgin]

That's kind of what I was saying though.  How could it not be obvious that God was undefeatable?  He basically snapped His fingers to make the universe exist, so... He could do the same thing to get rid of Satan and any of his followers, right?

Unless God created him specifically for that purpose, maybe.  Not too unlike characters in a video game, in a sense.  "Go and be bad for my amusement."

Or maybe the whole idea of Satan really is just an odd amalgamation of ideas that had nothing to do with each other and got mixed together through the years by mistake or to explain things like the serpent in Genesis.

[Loud Whispers]

That's kind of what I was saying though.  How could it not be obvious that God was undefeatable?  He basically snapped His fingers to make the universe exist, so... He could do the same thing to get rid of Satan and any of his followers, right?

Unless God created him specifically for that purpose, maybe.  Not too unlike characters in a video game, in a sense.  "Go and be bad for my amusement."

Or maybe the whole idea of Satan really is just an odd amalgamation of ideas that had nothing to do with each other and got mixed together through the years by mistake or to explain things like the serpent in Genesis.

When I send my Dorfs to dig a tunnel and they go berserk and drown everyone that does not necessarily mean it was my intention for them to do so, though it was in their capacity to do so

[origamiscienceguy]

God allowed Satan and all the other angels free will. I am sure that there has been a time where everybody has cursed God, or mocked him etc. Even though we are powerless to do anything to him, we still do it. Satan could have been in this sort of mindset when he sinned.

[Orange Wizard]

When I send my Dorfs to dig a tunnel and they go berserk and drown everyone that does not necessarily mean it was my intention for them to do so, though it was in their capacity to do so

But if you also designed the dorf's AI then you're going to have a fair idea of what they're likely to do

God allowed Satan and all the other angels free will.

sauce pls

[martinuzz]

sauce pls

http://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g187791-d2285269-i136158845-Pietro_al_Pantheon-Rome_Lazio.html