Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


Pages: 1 ... 304 305 [306] 307 308 ... 525

Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 681500 times)

Bohandas

  • Bay Watcher
  • Discordia Vobis Com Et Cum Spiritum
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: I am Enlightened by my Euphoria
« Reply #4575 on: January 12, 2016, 11:23:15 pm »

Did somebody say "probabilities"?

Did you know that it is actually more probable that the universe is a simulation, than real?  It's true!

http://web.stanford.edu/class/symbsys205/BostromReview.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnl6nY8YKHs


And some other fun things..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Chfoo9NBEow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp4NkItgf0E

I haven't read through all the links but I've read this sort of argument before and will give my standard rebuttal. It satisfies the mediocrity principle but violates occam's razor as much as anything possibly can; and generally results in an infinite regression.
Logged
NEW Petition to stop the anti-consumer, anti-worker, Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement
What is TPP
----------------------
Remember, no one can tell you who you are except an emotionally unattached outside observer making quantifiable measurements.
----------------------
Έπαινος Ερις

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4576 on: January 12, 2016, 11:23:33 pm »

I'm gonna go with my fallback suggestion here, which is to quote Ecclesiastes all the time
This is fantastic

Bohandas

  • Bay Watcher
  • Discordia Vobis Com Et Cum Spiritum
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4577 on: January 12, 2016, 11:34:00 pm »

I'm hoping someday someone will ask me rhetorically if I know what the Good Book says about hard work, so I can pull out Ecclesiastes 2:11

("Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun.")
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 11:38:01 pm by Bohandas »
Logged
NEW Petition to stop the anti-consumer, anti-worker, Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement
What is TPP
----------------------
Remember, no one can tell you who you are except an emotionally unattached outside observer making quantifiable measurements.
----------------------
Έπαινος Ερις

origamiscienceguy

  • Bay Watcher
  • WELL! OK THEN!... That was fun.
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4578 on: January 12, 2016, 11:41:54 pm »

I'm hoping someday someone will ask me rhetorically if I know what the Good Book says about hard work, so I can pull out Ecclesiastes 2:11

("Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun.")
Solomon was starting to go bonkers when he wrote that. If you read proverbs, he is... quite different.
Logged
"'...It represents the world. They [the dwarves] plan to destroy it.' 'WITH SOAP?!'" -legend of zoro (with some strange interperetation)

Orange Wizard

  • Bay Watcher
  • mou ii yo
    • View Profile
    • S M U G
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4579 on: January 12, 2016, 11:48:28 pm »

Solomon didn't write Ecclesiastes, though.

...

E:
~~~
There's no real way around that, I'm afraid. She's doing what she thinks is best for you, but appears to have missed the boat a little.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 11:56:01 pm by Orange Wizard »
Logged
Please don't shitpost, it lowers the quality of discourse
Hard science is like a sword, and soft science is like fear. You can use both to equally powerful results, but even if your opponent disbelieve your stabs, they will still die.

Rolan7

  • Bay Watcher
  • [GUE'VESA][BONECARN]
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4580 on: January 12, 2016, 11:55:50 pm »

I'm gonna go with my fallback suggestion here, which is to quote Ecclesiastes all the time
This really is lovely.

A solider argument, though I'm not saying it'll help or be a good idea, is 1 Timothy 2:12
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Seriously though...
I was in a situation with similar pressure, though I was about 22 at the time.  I just went.  I brought a notepad to draw and write unrelated ideas, and sometimes I took the opportunity to study the religious.
I would have liked to have told them I was atheist (anyone who doesn't believe is technically atheist... technically).  But honesty would have been pointless foolishness.
Even so I eventually tried to give myself to God, in a way confirming something I'd often assumed:  That nobody, no matter how rational, is immune to being indoctrinated.  Just look at how many brilliant people embrace religions.  It's hardcoded in the human mind.  It's necessary to either avoid it, or to face it head on.  To look at the apologetic arguments, and the rebuttals, and decide for yourself.  To stay rational.

If you just sit there in church with nothing else to pay attention to, you will eventually believe.  That's what hymns do, and fellowship, and sheer boredom.  Lack of external stimuli is the core of brainwashing.  That's WHY THEY DO IT.
Logged
She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Bohandas

  • Bay Watcher
  • Discordia Vobis Com Et Cum Spiritum
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4581 on: January 12, 2016, 11:58:36 pm »

Solomon didn't write Ecclesiastes, though.


Indeed.

Even if we take the author's identification in the beginning of the book as not being a lie (which many historians find questionable at best) I know enough about about biblical idiom to know that "son of david" could theoretically refer to any male descended from King David, no matter how distantly
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 12:00:20 am by Bohandas »
Logged
NEW Petition to stop the anti-consumer, anti-worker, Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement
What is TPP
----------------------
Remember, no one can tell you who you are except an emotionally unattached outside observer making quantifiable measurements.
----------------------
Έπαινος Ερις

Orange Wizard

  • Bay Watcher
  • mou ii yo
    • View Profile
    • S M U G
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4582 on: January 13, 2016, 12:00:40 am »

I was talking more about how the language used dates it a few centuries further down the track, but that too.
Logged
Please don't shitpost, it lowers the quality of discourse
Hard science is like a sword, and soft science is like fear. You can use both to equally powerful results, but even if your opponent disbelieve your stabs, they will still die.

Bohandas

  • Bay Watcher
  • Discordia Vobis Com Et Cum Spiritum
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4583 on: January 13, 2016, 12:02:46 am »

You could also compromise and join the Church of the SubGenius, which worships the christian god, but mostly just does so to be ironic.
Logged
NEW Petition to stop the anti-consumer, anti-worker, Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement
What is TPP
----------------------
Remember, no one can tell you who you are except an emotionally unattached outside observer making quantifiable measurements.
----------------------
Έπαινος Ερις

IronyOwl

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nope~
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4584 on: January 13, 2016, 12:07:12 am »

I hate seeing her so unhappy so can anyone offer advice about how to resolve this?
Religion and children both tend to be high-concern, low-thought topics, which breeds a lot of needless bullshit in regards to them. Placing the two together is a recipe for bad things for no reason, so at some point you might just have to accept that she's mentally ill and will remain unhappy because of that.

In response she said that she's very concerned for my soul and does not want me to face eternal damnation.
That said, if you don't like your options, try to find a different direction to go in. Ask her if she's talked with clergy about her concerns, for instance, and what they've said; most priests will probably not have the stones to assure her that her child is damned if he doesn't get his ass to church at a certain frequency.

Different ways of thinking about it are also good. It's possible the cultural aspect is bothering her more than the literal soul quality thing, and that not being as devout as her makes it feel like you're distant.

Regardless, it's probably not going to be a quick, clean resolution. You're probably going to have to commit to a fairly in-depth, lengthy project that still might not pay off, or just leave it sitting at a poor spot.
Logged
Quote from: Radio Controlled (Discord)
A hand, a hand, my kingdom for a hot hand!
The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.

hops

  • Bay Watcher
  • Secretary of Antifa
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4585 on: January 13, 2016, 12:15:41 am »

PTW
Logged
she/her. (Pronouns vary over time.) The artist formerly known as Objective/Cinder.

One True Polycule with flame99 <3

Avatar by makowka

DragonDePlatino

  • Bay Watcher
  • [HABIT:COLLECT_WEALTH]
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4586 on: January 13, 2016, 12:35:06 am »

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

There is no resolution that will leave both of you happy.

Uuuuugh! I feared that might have been the case. I'll give the prostration thing a shot, though. Even if I don't get spiritual insight from reading the Bible it'll lend me more insight into how others view the world. What version would you suggest? I've read some pretty old literature so I wouldn't mind reading the King James Bible if that's the most accurate and/or popular one. Or should I try one of the newer versions?

I'm gonna go with my fallback suggestion here, which is to quote Ecclesiastes all the time

I'm...not sure I follow. I'll have to read more into Ecclesiastes and digest this.

...nobody, no matter how rational, is immune to being indoctrinated.  Just look at how many brilliant people embrace religions.  It's hardcoded in the human mind.  It's necessary to either avoid it, or to face it head on.  To look at the apologetic arguments, and the rebuttals, and decide for yourself.  To stay rational.

But that's the rub. I feel that once I commit to either Atheism or Christianity, that room for being rational will disappear. Committing to one side pushes out the other so I've never wanted to face that kind of commitment. But then again, I've got a lot of my life ahead of me so we'll see...

You could also compromise and join the Church of the SubGenius, which worships the christian god, but mostly just does so to be ironic.

Good grief. First I find out about the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, now this. She'll think I'm insane and/or Satanic when she pulls up images like this so no thanks. XD

Religion and children both tend to be high-concern, low-thought topics, which breeds a lot of needless bullshit in regards to them. Placing the two together is a recipe for bad things for no reason, so at some point you might just have to accept that she's mentally ill and will remain unhappy because of that.

I know, right? Me and her are on good terms in literally everything else but every time she brings this up it creates nothing but strife. You weren't far off on your mentally ill guess, either. She suffers from chronic anxiety so avoiding this subject might be the best approach...

That said, if you don't like your options, try to find a different direction to go in. Ask her if she's talked with clergy about her concerns, for instance, and what they've said; most priests will probably not have the stones to assure her that her child is damned if he doesn't get his ass to church at a certain frequency.

That's a very nice suggestion. Getting a third party involved might be what we need. I remember the pastors around here being pretty nice (I attended church in childhood) so they might give her some consolation. She's attended church more frequently recently so I'll suggest that the next time she goes. And yeah, I know there's not going to be a quick resolution for all of this...The pessimist in me says that this will drag on for years if nothing works so I've mentally prepared myself for that. DX

Rolan7

  • Bay Watcher
  • [GUE'VESA][BONECARN]
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4587 on: January 13, 2016, 12:40:49 am »

...nobody, no matter how rational, is immune to being indoctrinated.  Just look at how many brilliant people embrace religions.  It's hardcoded in the human mind.  It's necessary to either avoid it, or to face it head on.  To look at the apologetic arguments, and the rebuttals, and decide for yourself.  To stay rational.

But that's the rub. I feel that once I commit to either Atheism or Christianity, that room for being rational will disappear. Committing to one side pushes out the other so I've never wanted to face that kind of commitment. But then again, I've got a lot of my life ahead of me so we'll see...
Yeah, if you commit wholly to anti-theism (being sure there is no god), you'll have closed your mind to some extent.  I'm anti-theist but I'm not suggesting that for you.  Just stay rational.  Believe things because there are good arguments for them.  Keep freethinking.  If that leads you to God or gods?  Great!  I won't agree with you but I'll have the utmost respect, and will listen to you as a peer.

Just please don't squander your intelligence.  If the tables were turned, and antitheism was the predominant belief, the right course would be the same...  Think for yourself.  Being skeptical is purely virtuous, even if you have to hide it.  Even though it's difficult.

Beware all brainwashing, not just religion.
Logged
She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Orange Wizard

  • Bay Watcher
  • mou ii yo
    • View Profile
    • S M U G
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4588 on: January 13, 2016, 01:01:01 am »

I'm...not sure I follow. I'll have to read more into Ecclesiastes and digest this.
Ecclesiastes is essentially nihilistic literature, with a lot of passages that appear to contradict many popular Christian ideas. In other words, it's a lot of fun to bring up when discussing Christianity and watching as people fumble around to explain it.

But that's the rub. I feel that once I commit to either Atheism or Christianity, that room for being rational will disappear. Committing to one side pushes out the other so I've never wanted to face that kind of commitment. But then again, I've got a lot of my life ahead of me so we'll see...
I pride myself on being a very rational Christian, unfortunately that mostly results in admitting that my faith is irrational.
Logged
Please don't shitpost, it lowers the quality of discourse
Hard science is like a sword, and soft science is like fear. You can use both to equally powerful results, but even if your opponent disbelieve your stabs, they will still die.

Tiruin

  • Bay Watcher
  • Life is too short for worries
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4589 on: January 13, 2016, 01:40:36 am »

[...]  That nobody, no matter how rational, is immune to being indoctrinated.  Just look at how many brilliant people embrace religions.  It's hardcoded in the human mind.  It's necessary to either avoid it, or to face it head on.  To look at the apologetic arguments, and the rebuttals, and decide for yourself.  To stay rational.

If you just sit there in church with nothing else to pay attention to, you will eventually believe.  That's what hymns do, and fellowship, and sheer boredom.  Lack of external stimuli is the core of brainwashing.  That's WHY THEY DO IT.
Err, this bit is very misleading. :-\ It's lacking the criticality of noting the subjects it mentions (and lacking specificity to the attitude it claims to be hardcoded. When you're working with concepts and how concepts are being accepted into the field of logic...please don't mix up how the process works. >_<

...nobody, no matter how rational, is immune to being indoctrinated.  Just look at how many brilliant people embrace religions.  It's hardcoded in the human mind.  It's necessary to either avoid it, or to face it head on.  To look at the apologetic arguments, and the rebuttals, and decide for yourself.  To stay rational.

But that's the rub. I feel that once I commit to either Atheism or Christianity, that room for being rational will disappear. Committing to one side pushes out the other so I've never wanted to face that kind of commitment. But then again, I've got a lot of my life ahead of me so we'll see...
That's where fear comes in--when you're uncertain of the specifics you're facing. Commitment does not mean the lack of rationality (nor do those who follow a religion mean they are any where less rational than those who don't, atheistic or anti-theistic); the core point lies in how interpretations go and what they mean as a lifestyle habit (which in regards to you and your mother, talk it over with the pastors there).

Religion and children both tend to be high-concern, low-thought topics, which breeds a lot of needless bullshit in regards to them. Placing the two together is a recipe for bad things for no reason, so at some point you might just have to accept that she's mentally ill and will remain unhappy because of that.

I know, right? Me and her are on good terms in literally everything else but every time she brings this up it creates nothing but strife. You weren't far off on your mentally ill guess, either. She suffers from chronic anxiety so avoiding this subject might be the best approach...
Um ._. IO, and DDP...I'd like y'all to beware using the idea of mentally ill (when you're pertaining to 'something this person does repeatedly and attached-ly'). It's...misleading (and pathologizing x_x) because it's not covering 'why' she does that, the many possibilities that can be done to work with it, and the context which makes this happen (and many other factors that lead me to nudge the use of those terms).

The anxiety, though, can be really worked on [See note above on Talking this over with your pastors.] since it is bound to concepts and interactions/interpretations. [If she is concerned about your soul being damned forever because you do not attend church, totally bring this up with your Pastors since you may need a trustworthy third-party to help you there. And this thread really won't help you solve the problem since we can't fully see what's going on there.]

I pride myself on being a very rational Christian, unfortunately that mostly results in admitting that my faith is irrational.
High-five much? :P I disagree on the latter part, and agree more on 'people's interpretations may lead to irrationality'. A lack of rationality can only be said when the only one method being used, is the only one method being described.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 304 305 [306] 307 308 ... 525