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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Loud Whispers]

My point is that God is involved in Christian morality, and is therefore inherently superior. I hope.

No offence, but there are many instances in which I would not follow the morality of God. That approach...isn't the best.

Also, some form of deity is involved in most/possibly all religions' morality. Doesn't make them inherently better. What religious morality seems to is take a load of common sense morals - don't kill, don't fight for no reason - it hurts you and others, that's why silly - and then adds a backstory and some form of eschatological or physical reward.

The crux of the issue here seems to be that you don't seem to realise that Christians believe Christian morality is special, whether really it is or really isn't notwithstanding.

I was drinking with a Sunni Turk and a Sikh Sri Lankan the other week and we had an excellent rant when my Turkish acquaintance remarked that all the religions believe they're the first and last and my Sikh was all "excuse me m8 generalizations?" - With Sikhism shooting off from Islam and Hinduism of course, and a lot of the Dharmic faiths holding impermanence of all things (including their own creeds) as a core belief

[Orange Wizard]

What IS faith?

Dunno.

[Rolepgeek]

I really, really don't understand faith at all.  I'm not proud of that or phrasing it as an attack, in fact I'm kinda ashamed?  Considering how much time I've spent in arguments with Christians both online and in person.  I just... don't... understand.

In high school I spent a week at a Christian (Baptist) camp and tried talking to God.  Begging to become a Christian.  At the time I desperately wanted something divine to believe in and...  Well, to believe that there was some grand cosmic plan where everything was okay.  I sat outside under the stars and just begged.  I wasn't angry afterwards, just disappointed and numb.

That was a pretty dark time for me.  I had been reading the Bible a lot, and knew what Jehovah is said to have done.  I was essentially willing to pledge to a Mythos beast.

Nowadays I say I believe in fairies, or "little people".  I actually do mean that.  I want them to exist, I think it's possible, and it would explain things more than it raised questions (since they have superpowers and hide from scrutiny).  Is that belief?  Do I have faith?  I don't know if that's what the words mean.

What IS faith?
Is it "Acting like a thing is true without solid evidence"?  Because that's how I feel about the fey, sure.  But I can't imagine being *evangelical* about something if I can't provide evidence.  It's one thing to act like something is true, it's another to *tell* people it's true with any certainty.

I guess probably most religious people feel some personal, unshareable evidence.  Not literally "talking to God" necessarily, but a feeling that a divine spirit is confirming their belief as true.

If that's true, I definitely believe in the Fey.  (Not that I would serve them, but they don't demand service.  And most of them are fucking terrifying aliens, nearly as bad as Jehovah)

Faith is believing that something is true, in your heart, without evidence or even against evidence. At least in the way I think you're talking about it (and the way I usually use it). It could also be simply the leap from somewhat supported evidence to taking it as fact. And of course, how you described it. Acting like it's true without evidence, or acting on the assumption that it will turn out true/alright/whatever.

And of course, if you believe it (and usually if you believe it, if you aren't aware of it and avoid it specifically, you find post hoc evidence; way the brain works), then you know it's true. If other people not knowing that could mean they go to Hell...well who would wish that on someone?

[Bohandas]

Delusion is believing that something is true, in your heart, even against evidence.

FTFY

[Rolepgeek]

Psychosis is believing that something is true, in your heart, without evidence or even against evidence.

FTFY

There is no objective basis for morality that does not lead to conclusions that the vast majority of people find repugnant. Wireheading or Pascal's Mugging or the Repugnant Conclusion or the Sadistic Conclusion.

I still believe in morality. I still believe in my morals, despite the evidence. That doing the right thing still matters, even if people are just atoms and we can't get off this world and the sun will explode and kill us all. Is that what you would describe as 'psychotic'?

[Rolan7]

You could use a democratic morality which most people, by definition, wouldn't find repugnant.  "Avoid killing, avoid stealing, avoid lying, support your relatives" would probably qualify.  Sounds familiar...

Honestly I do think it's madness to believe that doing the right thing matters.  It's a madness I subscribe to, to some degree anyway, because I am afflicted with it.  And there's no reason to shake it.

More seriously, religion and morality are learned in childhood.  Ideally from responsible guardians, though the harsh realities of life break through for many people.

[k33n]

There is no objective basis for morality that does not lead to conclusions that the vast majority of people find repugnant. Wireheading or Pascal's Mugging or the Repugnant Conclusion or the Sadistic Conclusion.

False.

[Orange Wizard]

False.

That's not particularly constructive.

[TheBiggerFish]

False.

That's not particularly constructive.

Indeed.
Why not?

[Bohandas]

Psychosis is believing that something is true, in your heart, without evidence or even against evidence.

FTFY

There is no objective basis for morality that does not lead to conclusions that the vast majority of people find repugnant. Wireheading or Pascal's Mugging or the Repugnant Conclusion or the Sadistic Conclusion.

I still believe in morality. I still believe in my morals, despite the evidence. That doing the right thing still matters, even if people are just atoms and we can't get off this world and the sun will explode and kill us all. Is that what you would describe as 'psychotic'?

More of an appeal to emotion and appeal to consequences

[Rolan7]

False.

That's not particularly constructive.

Indeed.
Where is this basis set out?

So rolepgeek made an unsupported assumption, k33n claimed it was false...  Then you demand that k33n provide proof?  I wouldn't comment except that I feel like I offered the counterexample you're asking for...

You could use a democratic morality which most people, by definition, wouldn't find repugnant.  "Avoid killing, avoid stealing, avoid lying, support your relatives" would probably qualify.  Sounds familiar...

Edit:  To clarify, K33n didn't provide support either, and did make a claim.
And it's not necessarily necessarily to support every claim one makes.

[TheBiggerFish]

Ah.
Whoops.
'Scuse me while I facepalm...
And edited.

[origamiscienceguy]

Roland, I myself have never had an experience with God talking to me directly. However, whenever I pray about something, it seems like in weeks to come, I find myself realizing that whatever I prayed for did end up happening in a peculiar way, one I wasn't expecting when I prayed. And I had long forgotten the prayer at that time, but when I realized it sort of answered, I remembered it. You guys will probably just think that it is coincidences, but it has happened quite a lot, so that is how my relationship with God is right now. (I need to improve it a lot though.)

The funny thing about prayer is that it is not you placing your will and desires on God, but you conforming to God's will. So whatever reason God had for not answering your prayers in the way you think they should be answered is all part of his will for your life.

Faith as defined by the Bible is "being sure of what you hope, and certain of what you do not see."

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Nowadays I say I believe in fairies, or "little people".  I actually do mean that.  I want them to exist, I think it's possible, and it would explain things more than it raised questions (since they have superpowers and hide from scrutiny).  Is that belief?  Do I have faith?  I don't know if that's what the words mean.

If that's true, I definitely believe in the Fey.  (Not that I would serve them, but they don't demand service.  And most of them are fucking terrifying aliens, nearly as bad as Jehovah)

Ain't that the truth.

Roland, I myself have never had an experience with God talking to me directly. However, whenever I pray about something, it seems like in weeks to come, I find myself realizing that whatever I prayed for did end up happening in a peculiar way, one I wasn't expecting when I prayed. And I had long forgotten the prayer at that time, but when I realized it sort of answered, I remembered it. You guys will probably just think that it is coincidences, but it has happened quite a lot, so that is how my relationship with God is right now. (I need to improve it a lot though.)

Not coincidence, but confirmation bias. You aren't testing God's presence through prayer, you already believe he's listening. Because of that, you allow yourself to widely interpret your own prayer as having been answered in some unorthodox manner, pun intended.

It's like how a person convinced of the power of tarot will make "accurate" predictions from a reading, and because they know themselves some of these may even contain actual insight that they are otherwise unaware of.

[Orange Wizard]

So rolepgeek made an unsupported assumption, k33n claimed it was false...  Then you demand that k33n provide proof?  I wouldn't comment except that I feel like I offered the counterexample you're asking for...

Democratic morality isn't objective, though. It's going to change over time as popular opinion changes. It's subjective by definition.