Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Telgin]

The passage about misusing His name is one that I've found pretty interesting too.  It can be interpreted a few ways, but the version I'm most familiar is that it means that you can't be forgiven for blasphemy, and will suffer accordingly (eternal Hell or not).

Now, it could instead be interpreted as just another way of saying that misusing His name is a sin.  "I won't hold you blameless" could be read as a fancy wording of "Don't do that."  It certainly seems to be implied that it's unforgivable though.

The real question then becomes what blasphemy is / misusing His name.  As I've mentioned before, some people I know believe that saying, "Oh my God!" is taking His name in vain and thus blasphemy and unforgivable.  What would be a more reasonable interpretation though?  Is claiming that God doesn't exist blasphemy?  Could you then be forgiven by converting?

[Bohandas]

The passage about misusing His name is one that I've found pretty interesting too.  It can be interpreted a few ways, but the version I'm most familiar is that it means that you can't be forgiven for blasphemy, and will suffer accordingly (eternal Hell or not).

The gospels seem to say that only blasphemy specifically against the Holy Spirit is unpardonable

... I'd fairly well disagree that most american pastors would consider #2 murder, or think Secunda was going to burn. Especially since it's pretty explicitly not murder in the biblical sense. KJV mistranslation or not, a great deal of the american faithful are bloodthirsty enough that killing like that wouldn't exactly trigger a 'thou hast sinned' reaction. Other parts of the situation might trigger ones, because a fair chunk of the church scene is misogynistic as fuck

Yes. Their grievance against her would more likely be something involving the phrase "traditional definition of marriage".

EDIT:
Deut 22:28-29

[Orange Wizard]

The real question then becomes what blasphemy is / misusing His name.  As I've mentioned before, some people I know believe that saying, "Oh my God!" is taking His name in vain and thus blasphemy and unforgivable.  What would be a more reasonable interpretation though?  Is claiming that God doesn't exist blasphemy?  Could you then be forgiven by converting?

Blasphemy is insulting the name of God in some way. Using the name of God to justify something very much ungodly, for instance. Saying he doesn't exist is kinda blasphemy-ish, I suppose.
In the case of "Oh my God", I would say that's taking his name in vain (i.e. treating the name of God in too light a manner) but not blasphemy.
Both are very bad, basically. I don't think it's wholly unforgivable, which wouldn't really make sense re: Christ's sacrifice, but it's clear that God doesn't appreciate it.

[Graknorke]

So when you say "name of god" is that specifically using the word Jehova or Yahweh or Jah or whatever, or just the idea of the Christian god?

[Orange Wizard]

The "name of God" basically means any term that's used to refer to God. Sorry, I should have specified.

[Loud Whispers]

AllahuGuruwehm8

[Rolepgeek]

So, presuming that God is real, Heaven and Hell are real, and some strange amalgamation of various Abrahamic belief systems are correct that are logically self-consistent, God=Good in reality rather than just as a self-reference that makes it impossible to argue in a meaningful manner, yadda yadda yadda, if I still hold a values system separate from the Abrahamic God's, why should I worship Him?

For selfish reasons, to avoid punishment and gain a reward? That seems...not very Christian. Or Islamic, for that matter, though it might be Judaic, if I am remembering/interpreting the little I know correctly.
Because He's just correct and therefore it becomes the right thing to do? It's consistent, at least, but I just can't really get behind it as a motivation.
In order to save others, not just myself, by becoming evangelist and spreading the Word? I can see that working in terms of logical reasoning, but I don't know how effective Evangelists really are, and saving others seems like something to aspire to, but that Jesus is infinitely better at, and interfering with good intentions will pave the way to damnation all the wider.

If God is truly Good, then my best course of action is to try to find what is truly Good, and act in that way. To claim that it is incomprehensible does not seem to match with scripture, given we only Sin because of Original Sin, which in turn came from an external agent deceiving and tricking us. In this case, claiming that God should have done X or Y is meaningless, because we can't understand his reasoning, but Sin (afaik) does not cloud our minds to the point where learning what is Good is impossible, nor acting on it, simply vastly more difficult.

And if all or most possibilities for the existence of the Divine, or any Divine being, are approximately equal in likelihood, then my best course of action is to concentrate on being and doing Good, rather than wasting my time praising the Most Good Being In All Of Existence. Such a being would, presumably (and obviously at this point my line of thought becomes presumptuous, apologies), desire for me to be Doing Good, rather than praising it. Once I'm Heaven there'll be plenty of time for self-congratulatory action, after the Rapture and everything. In the meantime what's important is helping people.

And if God would, will, and does condemn people to Hell for not praising his name and following his orders, well...that Heaven isn't really one I'd want to be in anyway, I would think.

Of course the other possibility is that God can't prevent people from going to Hell, he can only try and get them to do behavior that will get them to go to Heaven, but 'praising God' and 'various commandments God gives' don't really make too much sense as criteria, in that case. Maybe it's true anyway, but again, I'd rather focus on doing Good unto others, than accumulating Good for myself. Ideally speaking, anyway; I'm as flawed as anyone in reality, and am unlikely to manage to do that as well as I'd like.

If I've missed a line of reasoning here, I'd appreciate someone pointing it out to me. The only way to know your beliefs are true is to test them time and again.

Sidenote: Loud Whispers, going back to an earlier point with an article that illustrates my opposition to demonizing Islam beautifully, I think it'd be good if you read this.

[Frumple]

Maybe? Don't think I've ever seen anyone actually attribute things out like that, though. Omnimax is usually dropped whole-hog on the father/God aspect.

Still wouldn't really help much, though, s'far as I'm aware of trinitarian theology. They're still the same critter, even with the differentiated aspects.

[Descan]

Not really, cuz a) the trinity is... weird. But to put as blunt a point on it as any, they're supposed to be... the... same... ish? entity?

So it'd be like saying you can't call out to warn someone of an impending truck because while your eyes can see the truck, your mouth has no vision, and while your mouth can call out, your eyes have no way to talk.

And even if they were seperate-but-in-the-same-business, they can just like... talk to each other. 'Hey, God, there's something going on over there.' "yeah? why should I care?" "COME ON DAD JUST DO IT" "ME DAMNIT JESUS FINE"

[origamiscienceguy]

Yeah, the trinity is weird. Alot of the spiritual dimension probably just doesn't make sense to humans.

[Telgin]

Interestingly, dividing the omni- adjectives to the different parts of the trinity is almost what my preacher believes.  He said that God has talked to him and basically told him that he'd kill his kids if he didn't convert to Christianity, but that when Jesus talks to him it's an entirely different experience and more pleasant.  So, God isn't omnibenevolent and happy to kill anyone who crosses him, but Jesus is the one that is nice to everyone.

Even if that did turn out to be the case, the trinity is still a confusing mess.  The holy ghost almost feels like it's just a strange abstract concept that religious thinkers tossed into the Bible after the fact to try to explain what the "comforter" was, or whatever it's called in the Bible.

[origamiscienceguy]

Interestingly, dividing the omni- adjectives to the different parts of the trinity is almost what my preacher believes.  He said that God has talked to him and basically told him that he'd kill his kids if he didn't convert to Christianity, but that when Jesus talks to him it's an entirely different experience and more pleasant.  So, God isn't omnibenevolent and happy to kill anyone who crosses him, but Jesus is the one that is nice to everyone.

Even if that did turn out to be the case, the trinity is still a confusing mess.  The holy ghost almost feels like it's just a strange abstract concept that religious thinkers tossed into the Bible after the fact to try to explain what the "comforter" was, or whatever it's called in the Bible.

Wait, God when he says God talked to him, is he implying that he got new revelations?

[Rolan7]

This does sorta seem biblically supported. OT God is a monster, Jesus is mostly nice.
(The new threat of hell complicates matters, but in general)

[origamiscienceguy]

Each member of the trinity has its own role to play, and the holy spirit submits to the will of the son who submits to the will of the father, but that doesn't make them unequal.

[Frumple]

Wait, God when he says God talked to him, is he implying that he got new revelations?

Presumably the more normal talking to god stuff. Not sure if your denomination considers it normal, but it's a fairly common thing among, at least, south-eastern US protestant groups, to believe that they fairly regularly converse with god/jesus/etc. I've met a fair handful of people that believe pretty sincerely they've held entirely legitimate, completely real conversations with god, Jesus, and/or various angels. And not feelings, vague directions, or whathaveyou -- straight up "Hello, my name is Bobael, do not worry your eyes will not melt." talks.

It's real damn common for evangelical priests, in particular, from what I've seen -- you can tune in to several of those televised ones and occasionally hear something along the lines of, "I was talking to god last night, and he told me xyz." Rather imagine quite a few of those particular con-men are lyin' out their teeth about it, but there's plenty that have experienced what they believe to be the divine talkin' to 'em.