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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Rolepgeek]

Nah, Islam is big on the honourable holy war front, and its adherents have been practising as such for the entire history of the religion where they could get away with it. The other Abrahamic religions at least have the excuse of "well people don't interpret it that way". Islam doesn't, because a lot of people do.

Except when people do. Like the KKK. Or Israel's treatment of the Gaza Strip, you could say. Islam has very visible violent fundamentalists, partially because it's newer, and in some sense Christianity has gotten it out of their system, so to speak. The average Muslim, particularly ones who aren't in wartorn countries riddled with strife and poverty, is probably rather big on the whole 'peace and equality' bits, which, while extremely de-emphasized in media today, are kinda why it spread so much in the first place.

Plus, what Ispil said. Westboro Baptist Church doesn't represent all Christianity. ISIS isn't all Islam.

[Graknorke]

Here we go. Sizeable proportions of muslims in more well-off countries have extremist viewpoints. Just because they're not out fighting doesn't mean they don't support those who are. It is not a tiny minority problem. I find it hard to see ideological similarities between a group that share a religious ideology and write that off as a coincidence. There's clearly something to do with religion at work here.

[Rolepgeek]

And sizable portions of Christians in extremely well off countries do too (America, of course, being the sad prime example). Just because there's no one fighting to support doesn't make them any less fundamentalist.

That's before getting to the bias possible. Or secondary factors, like, say 'hey all these people hate me because of my religion...well, fuck them anyway, then!' or the whole 'hey what the fuck are those people doing to my fellow Muslims around the holy land'.

Or the fact that this is (very) approx. 500 or so years after the massive Protestant v. Catholic wars...which is about the difference between the birth of Christianity and the birth of Islam.

Mark Twain said it best. There are three types of lies. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

As well, I have to wonder what percentage of people in well off countries, if asked similar questions related to retaliation against Islamic countries, communities, and areas believed to maybe possibly harbor terrorism, would answer 'yeah bomb the fuck out of those filthy fucks'.

[Orange Wizard]

'yeah bomb the fuck out of those filthy fucks'.

It's funny that this is the attitude of both terrorists and people supposed to oppose terrorism

[Bohandas]

Here we go. Sizeable proportions of muslims in more well-off countries have extremist viewpoints. Just because they're not out fighting doesn't mean they don't support those who are.

These people are arguably an even more serious problem. They're more likely to bring about meaningful lasting change by voting than by fighting. Like the Christian right in he USA; the anchor that holds this country back.

'yeah bomb the fuck out of those filthy fucks'.

It's funny that this is the attitude of both terrorists and people supposed to oppose terrorism

Indiscrimimite mass bombing would be an overreaction but it would still be categorically different because the F4ench and United States militaries are backed by soverign nations (both of which are in turn backed by the will of the people), whereas religious extremists are not backed by any legitimate authority

[Orange Wizard]

Indiscrimimite mass bombing would be an overreaction but it would still be categorically different because ISIS and other caliphate militaries are backed by the will of Allah, whereas Western infidels are not backed by any legitimate authority

FTFY

[Bohandas]

From your perspective you feel like you have free will in that you make choices, but from an external perspective there was only one thing you were ever going to choose. Does that make sense?

Agreed

"Free Will" is kind of a loaded term that implies a sort of false connection. People use it like an idion but it's exactly not idiomatic at all. It's exactly what it looks like, a noun "will" being modified by an adjective "free" to indicate a quality that is not an inherent part of the noun. But the way religious apologists use it would have you believe that the phrase is redundant like "ATM Machine" or "Cirrhosis of the liver", but it's not. You can have will or volition that is predestined or mechanistic. Furthermore even if it is made more "free" by the introduction of some random element it is unclear what that would contribute except for meaningless noise (perhaps occasional termination of infinite loops?); that doesn't actually seem to be what "free" is meant to mean in this context though, where its usage implies that it is not something random, and yet not also something deterministic (non-random) either (and therefore, by process of elimination, cannot be anything at all)

[ggamer]

That's a poor excuse, especially considering Hell, as I said originally.

Not much love involved in "You don't believe in me because [reasons, usually involving evidence (or lack there of), or being raised in a different religion]? THEN BURN!" "But you could just like... pop up and tell me I'm wrong! I'm okay with that! You don't even need to stick your godfinger in my brain!" "Nope. Hell."

a running theme in the old testament is how God was literally a giant pillar of fire in the sky and yet his people still chose to live in sin. Humans, as sinful creatures, will always find reasons to live in sin, whether God's there telling them not to or not.

[Bohandas]

Just to clarify, my point about free will was never to fall into the cliche of "FREE WILL DOESN'T EXIST!"

But only to say I don't see why people think God cares about free will.

Oh, I would disagree. I would say he in fact has some sort of weird, big complex about it, just like we probably would if we were trying to make something truly sentient. He wants his kids/creations to like him, but if he just makes them that way it doesn't really count, but if he doesn't do anything they might think he's a dick for not being nicer, but doing everything for them is hard...incentive/disincentive should work, right?

That interpretation might have been viable if we were discussing a non-Abrahamic religion, but it violates the assumptions of omnipotence and omnibenevolence and therefore does not work in this context

[Strife26]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

Damn but Wikipedia is getting obtuse.



Much easier just to listen to the Rush song until one forgets about the problems inherent in considering yourself an independent actor in a world where both in-depth analysis of purely physical as well as religious norms seem to point to all of us being nothing more than immensely complex sets of predicable machines.

[Bohandas]

Going off topic for a minute here, in regard to the thread's poll I put down "SubGenius" but I also identify as a discordian, a nihilist/cosmicist, an agnostic, and a worshipper of technology

[Adragis]

Going off topic for a minute here, in regard to the thread's poll I put down "SubGenius" but I also identify as a discordian, a nihilist/cosmicist, an agnostic, and a worshipper of technology

Life is, in a word, technology.

[Graknorke]

And sizable portions of Christians in extremely well off countries do too (America, of course, being the sad prime example). Just because there's no one fighting to support doesn't make them any less fundamentalist.

That is true. Christian fundamentalists just aren't as extreme. Unless they're the kkk they're not liable to go and watch the stoning of a gay or an adulterer or whatever other stuff Islamists support.

[Sheb]

Stuff like the LRA would make for nice counter-exemple.

[Graknorke]

Oh, in worse off countries yeah the Christian exstremists are pretty much indistinguishable from the Islamists. Isn't the CAR meant to be pretty deep into a big religious war at the moment?