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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Teneb]

To clarify, I know Catholics don't pray to saints and Mary like they would to God or Jesus, but it is very interesting from a Protestant point of view that Catholics involve them at all.  From the Protestant Bible at least there's no reason given to do that, as far as I know.

In theory, they don't. Being raised as a catholic in a country with a catholic majority, I can tell you that in practice they do pray to saints and Mary. There are queues to pray at the shrines to saints present at churches. Hell, I've heard family members praying directly to saints multiple times throughout my life.

Not usually.  Actually, in my experience Protestants don't even pray to Jesus directly.  They usually / always just pray straight to God and then tack on something at the end like "in Jesus's name" so as to clarify that they're asking it through Jesus.

It may depend on the denomination. I see and hear a lot of the evangelicals (I guess I should say protestant, but the term is uncommon at best) around here very specifically praying to Jesus, and actually very rarely mentioning "the Lord God" in speech or prayer.

Could be wrong, of course.

[Telgin]

It probably does depend on the denomination, yeah.  As I've mentioned a few times in my posts before I'm mostly familiar with Pentecostal Holiness of the local flavor, which probably doesn't really represent Protestantism as a whole too well.

Anyway, back to the prayer thing - for those who are familiar with Catholicism, how does the Catholic church rationalize praying to saints or asking for their blessings?  Is there something in the Catholic Bible that supports the practice?

[Teneb]

Anyway, back to the prayer thing - for those who are familiar with Catholicism, how does the Catholic church rationalize praying to saints or asking for their blessings?  Is there something in the Catholic Bible that supports the practice?

Don't know about the Bible itself, but the Church stance is that the saint intercedes with God for intervention.

[Frumple]

Saints act as intermediaries, basically, s'far as I'm aware. Saints themselves don't really have any power except that they're closer to god and presumably know the right things to say to bring appropriate attention to subjects sent towards them. Kinda' (though only kinda') like calling the IT department instead of the CEO when your computer breaks -- it's still the CEO that's employing and letting the IT department work, but the IT department has a better idea how to phrase things to the boss to make sure the appropriate resources are brought to bear.

... also the catholic bible is the bible. Like... very, very literally, considering it's the catholic church that set the original canon. Presumably you're talking about the other bits of catholic canon, which... there's a word for I'm forgetting. Eh.

[TheDarkStar]

... also the catholic bible is the bible. Like... very, very literally, considering it's the catholic church that set the original canon. Presumably you're talking about the other bits of catholic canon, which... there's a word for I'm forgetting. Eh.

Apocrypha?

[Telgin]

Oh, I was always under the impression that Catholics used a physically different Bible that had all of the books from the Protestant Bible but included other books.  Well, I guess they could still be bound together in a single book, but in any case I thought they were treated exactly the same as the other books found in the Bible.

Regarding the saints: That's kind of what I assumed, and I think that's roughly the answer I got before.  The Catholic Church thread is dead though, so might as well continue the discussion here.  I guess maybe it makes more sense from a Catholic point of view, but it feels a little strange to me, since God presumably wouldn't need anyone to clarify the meaning of a prayer to him, or have a limited amount of attention to divide and thus need assistants to sift through the prayers.

Maybe it's just supposed to some kind of appeal to respect.  I mean, I guess the same argument applies to invoking Jesus in a prayer.

[Graknorke]

Nah Jesus makes more sense because it's explicitly stated that without his intervention you don't get into Heaven.

[Frumple]

Eh, god doesn't need the saints, nor does it possess limited multitasking capabilities, but it's not like the thing isn't on the books as acting through intermediaries fairly often -- letting the saints handle some things isn't much different than working through prophets or angels. S'more for man's benefit than god's, so far as I'm aware, basically. Saints' are more intercessory lubricant than interventional necessity.

E: Though I'm now left with the terrifying curiosity if someone out there has ground up saint bones to make lube. I'm pretty sure you could, and I rather imagine the market value of something like that would be faintly incredible...

[Askot Bokbondeler]

i heard it said by history related people(ethnography and archeology buffs) that catholicism converted a lot of the local pagan worshipping rites, places, and festivities into saint worshipping, and in south america missionaries did the same to local and slave religion, while protestantism was born more out of theological philosophy and draws less from natural tradition

[Descan]

Oh, I was always under the impression that Catholics used a physically different Bible that had all of the books from the Protestant Bible but included other books. 

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/asktheexpert/jun01.html

[Teneb]

Eh, god doesn't need the saints, nor does it possess limited multitasking capabilities, but it's not like the thing isn't on the books as acting through intermediaries fairly often -- letting the saints handle some things isn't much different than working through prophets or angels. S'more for man's benefit than god's, so far as I'm aware, basically. Saints' are more intercessory lubricant than interventional necessity.

From what I understand, the whole concept of saint worship is because it was easier to convert the polytheistic (and idol-worshipping) peoples of Europe (and later other regions) by adapting some of the beliefs. Let's say it worked quite well.

Also got Ninja'd.

[Graknorke]

E: Though I'm now left with the terrifying curiosity if someone out there has ground up saint bones to make lube. I'm pretty sure you could, and I rather imagine the market value of something like that would be faintly incredible...

You could probably find enough saint's toes and fingers going around to fill a bath with. Not that you should. Or that any of them would be the genuine article.

[Telgin]

Oh, I was always under the impression that Catholics used a physically different Bible that had all of the books from the Protestant Bible but included other books. 

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/asktheexpert/jun01.html

Ah, that's interesting and makes some sense.  I assumed that it varied in the New Testament as well, but by the changes being confined to the Old Testament I would assume that Biblical doctrine isn't that different between the two.

Anyway, shifting gears a little.  I've mentioned already how the Protestants around here feel about Catholics, who generally find it weird and possibly heretical that Catholics pray to anyone other than Jesus and God, and who think that it's strange that someone like the Pope exists with the authority he has.

Now, how do feelings flow in the other direction?  Do Catholics view Protestants as being too loose with the rules?  I read an essay by a Catholic scholar (name escapes me) who claimed that Protestants were almost "too" holy, although what he meant I can't quite remember.  I think it was a criticism of how informally Protestants treat their relationship with God, finding salvation on their own terms and interpreting what they feel are directions and convictions from God on their own instead of through someone who knows how to interpret things like that.

[Orange Wizard]

i heard it said by history related people(ethnography and archeology buffs) that catholicism converted a lot of the local pagan worshipping rites, places, and festivities into saint worshipping, and in south america missionaries did the same to local and slave religion, while protestantism was born more out of theological philosophy and draws less from natural tradition

When Christianity was adopted as the official religion of the Roman Empire, many Roman pagan holidays (like Saturnalia) we co-opted to Christian celebrations so the people wouldn't complain too much. The Roman Catholic Church periodically added new celebrations and festivals as well.
The Reformation (i.e. establishment of the Protestant churches) was much later. The reformers wanted to scrap a lot of the Catholic Church's celebrations, primarily those that weren't based in some way on the (revised) Bible. The result was pretty varied, which is why we have Protestants observing Lent and Halloween and other nonsense.
You'll never find a church that isn't based on culture or tradition in at least some form. Protestantism isn't based any more or less on theology or culture than Catholicism.

...

Saints' are more intercessory lubricant than interventional necessity

In the Old Testament, the average Jew could only communicate with God via a priest. The idea carries over to the New Testament, and the commonly held interpretation is that Jesus serves as the priest (along with the glorified saints if you're Catholic). We don't communicate with God directly but rather to Christ who then passes it on, so to speak.
It's counterintuitive that prayers are usually prefixed with "Dear Father in Heaven" or somesuch, but that's because it's based off the Lord's Prayer, which is effectively an example of a "good" prayer.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

i heard it said by history related people(ethnography and archeology buffs) that catholicism converted a lot of the local pagan worshipping rites, places, and festivities into saint worshipping, and in south america missionaries did the same to local and slave religion, while protestantism was born more out of theological philosophy and draws less from natural tradition

When Christianity was adopted as the official religion of the Roman Empire, many Roman pagan holidays (like Saturnalia) we co-opted to Christian celebrations so the people wouldn't complain too much. The Roman Catholic Church periodically added new celebrations and festivals as well.
The Reformation (i.e. establishment of the Protestant churches) was much later. The reformers wanted to scrap a lot of the Catholic Church's celebrations, primarily those that weren't based in some way on the (revised) Bible. The result was pretty varied, which is why we have Protestants observing Lent and Halloween and other nonsense.

what i was talking about is more things like local shrines, patron saints, and festivals and not catolicism\empire wide mandated traditions. many are, the scholars* argue, direct descendants from local traditions.

*by scholars i mean people i get drunk with

You'll never find a church that isn't based on culture or tradition in at least some form. Protestantism isn't based any more or less on theology or culture than Catholicism.

i never said otherwise, but they vary widely depending on their age and the writing technology available to it's precursors.
you can find religions or religious interpretations intensely based on folk culture and oral tradition, and others dictated by historical people, like mohamed, aquinas, luther, calvin, the trent council, constantinus, hubbard, joseph smith, etc.
protestantism is a spawn of the press, motivated by theological disagrements, and implemented relatively recently by dissatisfied purists\fanatics from the ground up in a virgin land or countries rescued from satan worshipping corrupt clergy, while catholicism was an effort to standardize the chaotic religious scene of the borglike romans, and implemented by coerced natives who mostly tried balance keeping their traditions and their heads