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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Bohandas]

One of my biggest issues against most religions is that you must live a life of temperance and restraint so that you can go to an afterlife where all your wildest dreams come true and you live in bliss. It's like rewarding a child who ate their vegetables by shoving a cake down their throat.

I think the idea is more that heaven is just as restrained miserable but only the abberrant few who derive pleasure from this get in and they perceive it as eternal bliss

[Helgoland]

The New Testament was made with strict guidelines.

The Catholic Church included some books that were outside of those guidelines

Wee bit of a contradiction there, mate.

I think the idea is more that heaven is just as restrained miserable but only the abberrant few who derive pleasure from this get in and they perceive it as eternal bliss

You do realize that this sounds rather disrespectful, don't you?

[scrdest]

About the virgin thing, almah can mean virgin or young woman, but in hebrew culture, the two were almost synonymous.

Weak argument. There is a word that specifically means 'virgin' in then-contemporary Hebrew, bethulah. It's only arguably synonymous insofar as the fact that the two groups tended to overlap for what should be obvious reasons.

It is definitely not synonymous sensu stricte and it seems like pretty transparent post-hoc apologetics for a mistranslation to Greek that got carried over because an average convert was far more likely to be acquainted with Greek and so, Greek texts and flawed translations; and both Septuagint and Hebrew texts use almah to describe definitely-non-virgins.

[origamiscienceguy]

I wasn't aware of that. Could you please give some sources?

[TD1]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Matthew 13:55-56
Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Galations 1:19
19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother

At the very least she wasn't a virgin for long after Jesus, whichever way you look at it. Unless they're all children of the holy spirit, of course, heh. It's also possible that she'd had children before Jesus, given that there are at least four brothers mentioned, and however many sisters. That doesn't happen over night.

 Edit: Removed two words that seemed to appear randomly.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

If she had children before christ she wouldnt be described as a almah

[TD1]

Either way, it challenges the Roman Catholic concept of Mary's somehow perpetual virginity. In other words, the thought that she was not only virgin when Jesus was born, but that throughout her life she was a virgin.

[origamiscienceguy]

James was Jesus' brother. Obviously she wasn't a virgin after Jesus.

But I think that she was a virgin before with Jesus because Joseph wanted to divorce here quietly when he found out she was pregnant.

[Orange Wizard]

Either way, it challenges the Roman Catholic concept of Mary's somehow perpetual virginity.

Wait, where did you get the idea that's a thing?

Is that a thing?

Helgo?

[Helgoland]

Iunno, I'm not that well-versed in that sort of stuff. Seems plausible though - if you put lots and lots of dudes into celibacy and hand them only one woman to think about, they're bound to get some crazy ideas.

[Telgin]

I've heard the same thing from others before.  If they're to be believed, there's some strange fascination with Mary's perpetual virginity to the point that some believe that she didn't even give birth to Jesus in the conventional way and that God just poofed Jesus out to avoid defiling her.

Now, I can't remember whether that author was a Catholic or Protestant, but that seems a bit far fetched to me.  I doubt too many believe anything like that.

That does sound a bit like typical Protestant dismissal of Catholic beliefs though.  Many Protestants around here anyway believe that Catholics are a bunch of crazy Mary worshipers who pray to everyone but God.

I remember asking about that in the Catholic thread long ago and the answer was somewhat unsatisfying, although I think the problem was that I find most any answer on why people should pray to be unsatisfying.

Edit: To clarify, I know Catholics don't pray to saints and Mary like they would to God or Jesus, but it is very interesting from a Protestant point of view that Catholics involve them at all.  From the Protestant Bible at least there's no reason given to do that, as far as I know.

[Bohandas]

Is it true that Protestant prayers to Jesus usually include statements somewhat along the lines of "Your mama's so ugly when she looks in the mirror her reflection throws up" 

[Frumple]

Not even remotely true.

[Telgin]

Is it true that Protestant prayers to Jesus usually include statements somewhat along the lines of "Your mama's so ugly when she looks in the mirror her reflection throws up" 

Not usually.  Actually, in my experience Protestants don't even pray to Jesus directly.  They usually / always just pray straight to God and then tack on something at the end like "in Jesus's name" so as to clarify that they're asking it through Jesus.

Now, the subject matter of such prayers varies tremendously, but yo mama jokes are pretty uncommon.

[origamiscienceguy]

Is it true that Protestant prayers to Jesus usually include statements somewhat along the lines of "Your mama's so ugly when she looks in the mirror her reflection throws up" 

uuhh... no.

Mary is a very good example of faith, and is often used as the example for a godly woman. At least in my church.