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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Arx]

if you buy something on Sunday (a sin)

...they actually teach that? Wow. (I can think of no reasonable justification for that being a sin).

[MaximumZero]

Well, you are forcing someone to work on their supposed holy day off. Stores wouldn't be open if you weren't there. Then again, clergy work on the sabbath, too, so I don't know what that says about them.

[Robsoie]

About

The church I still get dragged to believes that any sin you commit can and will send you to eternal burning torment.

I wonder what kind of church that is, as that is directly ignoring Matthew 12:31 and the extent of God's mercy regarding sinners, especially considering everyone has faults of their own.

And even regarding that specific unforgivable sin, on the cross the Christ prayed God to forgive those because they didn't knew what they were doing.

Meaning that very likely only those that commit this specific sin while knowing what they are doing aren't going to recieve the mercy, of course unless God gives them so, as whatever man says, it's all in God's judgement in the end.

Is this mercy for sinners going after a time of "soul cleansing" in some kind of "fire" or before, avoiding it, it's not mentionned.

[sprinkled chariot]

Orthodox church considers sinful talking without serious reason especially telling jokes.

[Arx]

Well, you are forcing someone to work on their supposed holy day off. Stores wouldn't be open if you weren't there. Then again, clergy work on the sabbath, too, so I don't know what that says about them.

It's not a sin to work on the Sabbath, though. As far as I can tell, it's just conservatives pushing their own agendas under the guise of religion (as usual).

[Graknorke]

...rewriting history? Not following sola scriptura isn't rewriting history.

Well I mean you're taking something that's meant to be absolute truth and then changing your mind and saying actually it isn't. I don't know what else you'd call that.

And last, you don't see the difference between not believing in Jesus and choosing to worship the Beast? You can see no difference at all?

Of course I see the difference, but that doesn't mean that Christian doctrine does. What I picked up from the people I'd consider to be authorities (teachers at a religious school, the canon who lead services in my local church, and probably some other people) it doesn't matter if you're literally Hitler or you just had lustful thoughts for someone you're not married to; the only thing that matters when it comes to your judgement is whether or not you've looked for forgiveness in Jesus. Anything else is irrelevant because you're stuck with original sin regardless.

Well, you are forcing someone to work on their supposed holy day off. Stores wouldn't be open if you weren't there. Then again, clergy work on the sabbath, too, so I don't know what that says about them.

It's not a sin to work on the Sabbath, though. As far as I can tell, it's just conservatives pushing their own agendas under the guise of religion (as usual).

16 Tyrians also, who lived in the city, brought in fish and all kinds of goods and sold them on the Sabbath to the people of Judah, in Jerusalem itself! 17 Then I confronted the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this evil thing that you are doing, profaning the Sabbath day?

That one I am almost certain is a real thing, rather than an interpretation. Then again I think Jesus said at some point that it's okay to do work on the Sabbath so long as it's also a good thing. This one.

[Arx]

...rewriting history? Not following sola scriptura isn't rewriting history.

Well I mean you're taking something that's meant to be absolute truth and then changing your mind and saying actually it isn't. I don't know what else you'd call that.

It's really really weird how deeply ingrained sola scriptura is even among the areligious folks here.

And last, you don't see the difference between not believing in Jesus and choosing to worship the Beast? You can see no difference at all?

Of course I see the difference, but that doesn't mean that Christian doctrine does. What I picked up from the people I'd consider to be authorities (teachers at a religious school, the canon who lead services in my local church, and probably some other people) it doesn't matter if you're literally Hitler or you just had lustful thoughts for someone you're not married to; the only thing that matters when it comes to your judgement is whether or not you've looked for forgiveness in Jesus. Anything else is irrelevant because you're stuck with original sin regardless.

Yes. However, either that's special-cased for Revelation or Revelation is wrong, so my point stands.

Well, you are forcing someone to work on their supposed holy day off. Stores wouldn't be open if you weren't there. Then again, clergy work on the sabbath, too, so I don't know what that says about them.

It's not a sin to work on the Sabbath, though. As far as I can tell, it's just conservatives pushing their own agendas under the guise of religion (as usual).

16 Tyrians also, who lived in the city, brought in fish and all kinds of goods and sold them on the Sabbath to the people of Judah, in Jerusalem itself! 17 Then I confronted the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this evil thing that you are doing, profaning the Sabbath day?

That one I am almost certain is a real thing, rather than an interpretation. Then again I think Jesus said at some point that it's okay to do work on the Sabbath so long as it's also a good thing. This one.

That, and the thing that I am forever referencing:

28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

So unless you're Jewish, you're A-okay.

[Helgoland]

...rewriting history? Not following sola scriptura isn't rewriting history.

Well I mean you're taking something that's meant to be absolute truth and then changing your mind and saying actually it isn't. I don't know what else you'd call that.

It's really really weird how deeply ingrained sola scriptura is even among the areligious folks here.

Yeah, some folks gave a couple good examples of what I meant. Seriously though: The bible was put together at some point during the fourth or so century, hundreds of years after Jesus and all his contemporaries had died. And what went in and what stayed out was decided by majority vote! How can the bible be a higher authority than the Church if the Church decided the bible's content in the first place?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Because the Bible is inerrant, so god wouldn't have allowed them to make any mistakes, because god's word is perfect, as stated in the Bible.

[Helgoland]

- That's circular logic.
- If God doesn't let the Church make mistakes, how can the Church make mistakes today?
- Who says that God's commandments stay the same over time? Surely different times and different societies call for different commandments...

[MetalSlimeHunt]

-I know, I'm not arguing in favor of Christianity, but that is literally the accepted theology. I mean, hell, you had Dwarfy explicitly supporting Divine Command Theory just a couple of pages ago.
-The Church can make as many mistakes as it wants, just not regarding God's doctrine, hence why the Pope may speak infallibly on such matters and why those who confess a different belief are heretics.
-God's commandments cannot change because that would imply that God had changed his mind, if God changes his mind it exposes God as not omniscient, which we know must be impossible since God's word is perfect.

[Graknorke]

- That's circular logic.

This is the religion thread

If God doesn't let the Church make mistakes, how can the Church make mistakes today?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe they don't make mistakes.

Who says that God's commandments stay the same over time? Surely different times and different societies call for different commandments...

Because we haven't had any big-time prophets in a thousand and a bit years.

[Rolan7]

Okay first off, it's kinda funny to see Christians arguing against the Bible and the circular logic of it attesting to its own infallibility   We've come a long way.

It actually makes perfect sense, though.  The Christians here seem to almost entirely be freethinkers, skeptics.  That's a really good thing.  It makes it hard to attack their beliefs, but also makes it unnecessary.  I think it's fine for someone to believe in God (or fairies, like I do).  It's only a problem when people get caught up in doctrines which make them do bad things.  And (almost) no one here is like that.  Also, atheists get caught up in doctrines too...  There are differences but still.

So it's frustrating because "How am I supposed to win an argument against this person, when their faith is self-sourced and it's hard to tell what specific things they believe in?".  Compared to making a case against a Bible literalist, which is easy and kinda played out.

I say that knowing there's at least one Bible literalist here, which maybe is another reason why atheists keep making arguments against the literal Bible.

[Arx]

Okay first off, it's kinda funny to see Christians arguing against the Bible and the circular logic of it attesting to its own infallibility   We've come a long way.

I just have to check, you don't mean Helgo do you? Because I'm pretty sure he's an atheist on some level (although I could be wrong!).

It's certainly true that we have lots of free thinkers here. I'm certainly a heretic for multiple reasons, at least according to the Roman Catholic Church

[Sheb]

I think Helgo is some kind of Catholic agnostic or something.