Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


Pages: 1 ... 157 158 [159] 160 161 ... 525

Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 681371 times)

Descan

  • Bay Watcher
  • [HEADING INTENSIFIES]
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2370 on: July 02, 2015, 12:46:03 pm »

I can't think of any cases of actual open warfare acting to convert people, though. I mean, the Crusades didn't really manage that except possibly by accident (Middle-Eastern technology and all that), and there aren't really many other instances of it. ISIS certainly doesn't make me want to convert to Islam, for example.
Odd that you say that, considering that Islam spread so quickly as much by the sword as by any institutional programs like the Jizya tax.

Also, last I checked the Baltics are pretty Christian now-a-days, not many pagans there, and the Teutonic Order and the Northern Crusade were pretty much what did that, as far as I can tell.
Logged
Quote from: SalmonGod
Your innocent viking escapades for canadian social justice and immortality make my flagellum wiggle, too.
Quote from: Myroc
Descan confirmed for antichrist.
Quote from: LeoLeonardoIII
I wonder if any of us don't love Descan.

Arx

  • Bay Watcher
  • Iron within, iron without.
    • View Profile
    • Art!
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2371 on: July 02, 2015, 12:47:58 pm »

Huh. Fair enough.
Logged

I am on Discord as Arx#2415.
Hail to the mind of man! / Fire in the sky
I've been waiting for you / On this day we die.

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2372 on: July 02, 2015, 12:48:34 pm »

I guess. I can't think of any cases of actual open warfare acting to convert people, though.
Active warfare, not particularly, but sustained campaigns of violence? Yes. The US's treatment of native americans is pretty much a glaring example of that. Quite a lot of the mistreatment and murder of those populations were, at least in part, explicitly to induce conversion. There were other aspects to it as well, of course, but that was definitely one of them.

From what I understand, similar campaigns have been... not exactly unknown throughout history. The conversion aspect usually comes after the initial conquest, though, sure, for what that's worth.

And ninja'd be desc with other examples :V
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

Rolan7

  • Bay Watcher
  • [GUE'VESA][BONECARN]
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2373 on: July 02, 2015, 12:54:50 pm »

"A second is equally important [to the greatest commandment]: love your neighbour as yourself." - Matthew 22:39

"The second is like it: you shall love your neighbour as yourself." - Mark 12:31

"In everything, treat others as you would want them to treat you, for this sums up the law and the prophets." - Matthew 7:12
Do slaves really count as neighbors?  Even if they do, it makes sense to love your property and treat it well.
For Matthew 7:12, the golden rule, here's an equivalent conclusion:  "If I owed money, I'd like for the debt to be erased.  Therefore I should erase everyone's debts to me.  My bank will do well."
Slavery and indentured servitude weren't about hatred, they were about contractual labor.  They also broke certain human rights, but people in Jesus's time didn't know that.  *And Jesus didn't tell them*

1 Peter 2:18
Quote
Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
1 Timothy 6:1
Quote
Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
Ephesians 6:5
Quote
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ.
*As unto Christ*.  And for this particular issue, the Bible doesn't say both things and let people choose which to follow.  It doesn't condemn slavery anywhere.

These followers of Jesus not only praise obedient slaves, they award honor to slave owners.  Just look at that Ephesians quote!
This goes beyond just being influenced by the morality of the time (which Jesus openly defied in many ways, but *never* condemned slavery).  This is saying to be the most loyal, reverent slaves possible.  To disrespect your master is to blaspheme God (1 Timothy).  Honor them even if they're cruel (1 Peter).  Be obedient to them and Christ *equally* (Ephesians).

The Jews took slaves all the time.  Jesus, a Jew, said a lot of things but he never says to end that practice.  "Love each other" just doesn't count.  Your interpretation contradicts the above passages, and relies on a modern understanding of slavery being evil.  Nobody back then would interpret it the way you have.  Slave owning wasn't about hatred, it was a common financial arrangement.  *Now* we know that it's wrong, but people back then didn't.

Fakedit: Oh oops, I was going to comment about the Native Americans and such.  Basically, missionaries have historically succeeded in areas dominated by military (or more recently, economic) power.  Sometimes they try going to sovereign places, like China, which doesn't work out so well for them.
Logged
She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Arx

  • Bay Watcher
  • Iron within, iron without.
    • View Profile
    • Art!
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2374 on: July 02, 2015, 01:28:02 pm »

Do slaves really count as neighbors?

Do slaves really count as people?

Even if they do, it makes sense to love your property and treat it well.

Of course. But you have to consider - wouldn't you be loving them more if they were free and had their own will? If someone truly wants to be a slave, then they should be allowed to be enslaved, provided it doesn't cause other problems, of course.

For Matthew 7:12, the golden rule, here's an equivalent conclusion:  "If I owed money, I'd like for the debt to be erased.  Therefore I should erase everyone's debts to me.  My bank will do well."

I'm not exactly sure where you're going with this...? Did you mean you should erase your debts to everyone else, as in refuse to repay them? Because if so, yep. If someone asks me for something, I give (as opposed to loan) it to them if I possibly can, on the basis that that's how I'd wish to be treated. If everyone acted like that, we'd have a lot fewer problems in the world.

Slavery and indentured servitude weren't about hatred, they were about contractual labor.  They also broke certain human rights, but people in Jesus's time didn't know that.  *And Jesus didn't tell them*

So if they didn't know it was bad, why was it bad? I mean, if you can't tell something's a problem, even by listening to the people it's apparently a problem for, it seems unlikely that it's a problem.

These followers of Jesus not only praise obedient slaves, they award honor to slave owners.  Just look at that Ephesians quote!

Quote from: Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

Not seeing it. Could you elaborate a bit?

This goes beyond just being influenced by the morality of the time (which Jesus openly defied in many ways, but *never* condemned slavery).  This is saying to be the most loyal, reverent slaves possible.  To disrespect your master is to blaspheme God (1 Timothy).  Honor them even if they're cruel (1 Peter).  Be obedient to them and Christ *equally* (Ephesians).

Of course. "Love your enemy, and pray for those who curse you." There is no room for hatred in Christianity. Not even to someone who owns you and you have every reason to hate.

The Jews took slaves all the time.  Jesus, a Jew, said a lot of things but he never says to end that practice.  "Love each other" just doesn't count.  Your interpretation contradicts the above passages, and relies on a modern understanding of slavery being evil.  Nobody back then would interpret it the way you have.  Slave owning wasn't about hatred, it was a common financial arrangement.  *Now* we know that it's wrong, but people back then didn't.

Well, yes. Slavery is only forbidden by the whole love thing if it's problematic, which the way you're describing it it isn't.

Active warfare, not particularly, but sustained campaigns of violence? Yes. The US's treatment of native americans is pretty much a glaring example of that. Quite a lot of the mistreatment and murder of those populations were, at least in part, explicitly to induce conversion. There were other aspects to it as well, of course, but that was definitely one of them.

From what I understand, similar campaigns have been... not exactly unknown throughout history. The conversion aspect usually comes after the initial conquest, though, sure, for what that's worth.

* Arx files this away.

Something to think about. Thanks, and to Descan.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there has ever been a civilization with such universal slave ownership that it would be suspicious not to own slaves. From my understanding it's an upper class thing usually, and middle class families might have a few. You might not be able to keep a high social status in some civilizations without slaves, but keeping slaves so you can stay rich goes a little beyond just cowardice.

Regardless of that, I still don't buy the "only if it's inconvenient" thing. If the Bible contained instructions on how to properly skin someone alive, that would be an implicit approval of flaying people. It would be silly to interpret this hypothetical passage as rules for when it's inconvenient to not skin a guy alive - the only reason you'd do that would be if you were actively trying to minimize things that make the Bible look bad.

You're probably right. Does my assorted rambling in an attempt to answer Rolan above sort of answer this?

Edit: typing with freezing cold hands is hard. If you see a slash or a greater-than symbol somewhere it's a typo for a question mark.



It's getting a little late here, and I have an early start tomorrow. I may suddenly disappear until the sixth or seventh, sorry.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 01:48:18 pm by Arx »
Logged

I am on Discord as Arx#2415.
Hail to the mind of man! / Fire in the sky
I've been waiting for you / On this day we die.

Rolan7

  • Bay Watcher
  • [GUE'VESA][BONECARN]
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2375 on: July 02, 2015, 02:00:11 pm »

Thanks a lot for replying, I have too much fun with discussions like this.  I'm going to step away for a while too - I'd love to see what anyone else has to say about any of this.
Logged
She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

TD1

  • Bay Watcher
  • Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2376 on: July 02, 2015, 03:27:06 pm »

Quote from: Arx link=topic=147792.msg6347624#msg6347624 date=1435861682
Do slaves really count as people?

No. Not to the one who owns him, nor to the people of that time. Are monkeys people? No, they would say. Are slaves people? No, just like monkeys, they are not. They bear resemblance to us in some actions and words, but they are base all the same. There is a reason it was a revelation for a black man to say, wrapped in his chains as he was, "am I not a brother and a man?"
Quote
Of course. But you have to consider - wouldn't you be loving them more if they were free and had their own will? If someone truly wants to be a slave, then they should be allowed to be enslaved, provided it doesn't cause other problems, of course
Would you care if to you they weren't a person? And, assuming some human to human empathy stirred you, how would you be helping them by leaving them without work and 'employment.' Indeed, they seem rather helpless. Better to keep them and let them work for their bread like God-fearing men should.
Quote
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

Not seeing it. Could you elaborate a bit?
Not to be rude, but to put it bluntly couldn't that be made to say "Work like a nigger for your master, because he's as Christ to you?"
Quote
Of course. "Love your enemy, and pray for those who curse you." There is no room for hatred in Christianity. Not even to someone who owns you and you have every reason to hate.
In which case God is a hypocrite. His message and actions in the Old Testament are often hatred inciting.


Oh, also, saw this on facebook:

Quote
Yesterday an ISIS member stopped the car of a Christian couple.
ISIS member: Are you Muslim?
Christian man: Yes, I'm Muslim.
ISIS member: If you are a Muslim, then recite a verse of Quran.
Christian man recited a verse from the Bible.
ISIS member: Ok yallah go.
Later his wife tells him: "I cannot believe the risk you just took.
Why did u tell him that we are Muslims?
If he knew you were lying he would have killed both of us."
"Do not worry! If they knew the Quran they would not kill people" answered the Husband.
ISIS is not Islam, terrorism has no religion.

Kindly share it as much as you can

As I can't rant at the author, I will do so to an extent here.
Of course the ISIS member had read the Quran. They read it...well, religiously. Just because your view and interpretation of religion doesn't involve such things doesn't mean that someone who sees religion as having a different meaning is no longer following the original religion. They are a different type of Muslim, perhaps, but they are following their religion. Christians who follow the anti-gay verses aren't suddenly not Christian. Muslims who follow the 'Kill your non-Muslim neighbour' verses aren't suddenly not Muslim.
Logged
Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination
  TD1 has claimed the title of Penblessed the Endless Fountain of Epics!
Sigtext!
Poetry Thread

Vilanat

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2377 on: July 02, 2015, 03:41:58 pm »


Quote
Yesterday an ISIS member stopped the car of a Christian couple.
ISIS member: Are you Muslim?
Christian man: Yes, I'm Muslim.
ISIS member: If you are a Muslim, then recite a verse of Quran.
Christian man recited a verse from the Bible.
ISIS member: Ok yallah go.
Later his wife tells him: "I cannot believe the risk you just took.
Why did u tell him that we are Muslims?
If he knew you were lying he would have killed both of us."
"Do not worry! If they knew the Quran they would not kill people" answered the Husband.
ISIS is not Islam, terrorism has no religion.

Kindly share it as much as you can

As I can't rant at the author, I will do so to an extent here.
Of course the ISIS member had read the Quran. They read it...well, religiously. Just because your view and interpretation of religion doesn't involve such things doesn't mean that someone who sees religion as having a different meaning is no longer following the original religion. They are a different type of Muslim, perhaps, but they are following their religion. Christians who follow the anti-gay verses aren't suddenly not Christian. Muslims who follow the 'Kill your non-Muslim neighbour' verses aren't suddenly not Muslim.

Obviously that incident in that quote never happened. its a simple propaganda.
Logged

Adragis

  • Bay Watcher
  • Edgelady Supreme
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2378 on: July 02, 2015, 03:43:45 pm »

Propaganda for what? Or is it just general against-ISIS propaganda?
Logged
thincake

TD1

  • Bay Watcher
  • Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2379 on: July 02, 2015, 03:45:15 pm »

I know that. I'm not making an argument based on the validity of the quote, more on the propaganda behind it.
Propaganda for what? Or is it just general against-ISIS propaganda?
Presumably it's just general theistic propaganda. "What, Muslim terrorists show religion can do bad things? But their religious crusade isn't religious, don't you know!"
Logged
Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination
  TD1 has claimed the title of Penblessed the Endless Fountain of Epics!
Sigtext!
Poetry Thread

Adragis

  • Bay Watcher
  • Edgelady Supreme
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2380 on: July 02, 2015, 03:48:20 pm »

I don't think that sort of argument has a point, given that similar things have been done in the past and with very few other motives.
Logged
thincake

Vilanat

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2381 on: July 02, 2015, 03:50:23 pm »

That's a pro Islam propaganda of course. one that tries propagating that Islam is the religion of peace and hence the Islamic state has nothing to do with it.

Logged

TD1

  • Bay Watcher
  • Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2382 on: July 02, 2015, 03:54:04 pm »

Actually, you are correct. It's not general, it's directed specifically at Islam. This is confirmed on reading the less than Anglican name of the original poster :P
Logged
Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination
  TD1 has claimed the title of Penblessed the Endless Fountain of Epics!
Sigtext!
Poetry Thread

Descan

  • Bay Watcher
  • [HEADING INTENSIFIES]
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2383 on: July 02, 2015, 04:59:51 pm »

It's also click-baity feel-good bullshit, "forwards from grandma" tier.
Logged
Quote from: SalmonGod
Your innocent viking escapades for canadian social justice and immortality make my flagellum wiggle, too.
Quote from: Myroc
Descan confirmed for antichrist.
Quote from: LeoLeonardoIII
I wonder if any of us don't love Descan.

penguinofhonor

  • Bay Watcher
  • Minister of Love
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2384 on: July 02, 2015, 05:06:07 pm »

.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 05:29:46 pm by penguinofhonor »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 157 158 [159] 160 161 ... 525