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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 681542 times)

Rolan7

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2070 on: June 08, 2015, 04:34:51 pm »

Nah that's a joke, rigor mortis wears off even on undead.
Um, not that I'm more of an expert on this subject.
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2071 on: June 08, 2015, 05:37:22 pm »

...
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TD1

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2073 on: June 08, 2015, 06:03:56 pm »

I sense we may have crossed a line.
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2074 on: June 08, 2015, 06:50:34 pm »

I added a new rule against the whole necro-smut/undead sex thing.

Mostly because it's horrifying. And kinda bends the forum guidelines.
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fraxert

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2075 on: June 09, 2015, 12:09:47 am »

     A pair of questions for atheists regarding the aversion to calling atheism a belief.
     The term belief is (linguistically speaking) used correctly, you believe there is no god ergo your belief is that there is no god, hence, barring a confusion in terminology, the distaste doesn't appear to be linguistic in nature.  Atheists identify with each other, hence calling themselves atheists to the public, but have philosophical divisions on the inside of that loose confederation, of which I'm afraid I'm too poorly acquainted with to properly categorize.  A parallel that come readily to mind is Christianity, which is a diverse set of people groups sharing a name but not always an opinion, thus it seems to be poorly thought through as a clarification of organization, due to the existence of highly decentralized and personal religions (Eg. Wicca).
     Finally coming to the question, is the aversion a matter of wanting to avoid a confusion of terminology (belief with faith), or is it a means of differentiating between spiritually and materialistically (I don't mean here the negative connotations, merely the relation to matter and natural laws) founded beliefs, or is it a third option I neglected to consider?  Also, please point out any logical fallacies I may have made, politely of course.

     Secondly, Atheists and Agnostics, have you studied theologies and the philosophies that go with them?  Were you educated by its proponents-- not its opponents-- in them?  What about other atheists and agnostics you know?  As regards my own faith, who and/or what did you learn about Christianity from, if you have studied it?  This is one area where I know I fall down sometimes, not carrying a well working understanding of the topic at hand.
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Biowraith

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2076 on: June 09, 2015, 01:09:07 am »

     A pair of questions for atheists regarding the aversion to calling atheism a belief.

I guess I'd call myself an agnostic atheist - I don't think there's any way to know (even if I somehow 'met' God I'd have no way to determine that's who I'd just met) but I think it's unlikely there is one, especially as described in any of the religions I've encountered.  To answer your two questions:

Personally, I don't really have an aversion to calling atheism a belief, because as you say that's what it is.  I would have an aversion to comparing it with religious belief for the most part though, as I don't think it has the same level of devotion or significance, and certainly not the same level of organisation - Christianity may have a diverse set of people groups, but even so there's still a far greater level of organisation, hierarchy, official texts, rules, etc involved there.  I'd also dispute the idea that I identify with other atheists - I don't particularly.  I mean we obviously share that one belief, but that's not enough common ground for me to feel a connection or shared identity with someone.  But then, I don't particularly identify with anyone, although that's a more personal issue that goes beyond the scope of this thread.

As for my level of study, I was raised a Protestant Christian until around the age of 10 and went to church each week (and I was a believer for the duration - I don't recall the point where I stopped believing, but I do remember as a kid arguing with other kids about the existence of God, on the proponent side).  I'd not go so far as to say I've studied theologies and philosophies, beyond the normal exposure a kid gets going to sunday school etc and an adult gets paying attention when people discuss it online or browsing wikipedia - I try to pay as much attention to what the proponents say as the opponents; I'd like to say even more so, since their beliefs on the subject are more relevant when determining whether I could/should share those beliefs, although there's always the possibility that my own belief is unconsciously biasing me in that regard.  But actual study, no; without wanting to sound overly dismissive I'd rather spend my time on other things.
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Rolan7

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2077 on: June 09, 2015, 01:58:18 am »

Well real quick, and I'm not staying online long tonight...
The meaning of "Atheism" gets confused a lot, and understandably so (because it was historically dangerous to discuss openly, and still is in some places or circles).  Here's my understanding of the "tiers":

Anti-theist:  Believes or claims there are no gods.  "I know that X is false"
Atheist:  Doesn't believe in gods.  "I don't know that X is true"
Agnostic: Doesn't know whether there are gods "I don't know for sure"

An atheist can also be an anti-theist or an agnostic, but not both.

So, atheism isn't a belief.  It's a lack of belief in gods. 
Anti-theism can be based on belief, or it can be based on reasoning.  Logically impossible things don't exist (like a God based on a full literal interpretation of the King James Bible).  If something's technically possible but seems unlikely, that involves some belief.  Like believing that gravity won't suddenly reverse tomorrow.  We don't know 100% that it won't, but it's convenient to say it won't.

As for the second question...  I'd say I've learned a more about Christianity from its proponents, and more about the Bible from its opponents.  Despite going to youth group and Bible studies (off and on) up through college.  The churches preached a few nice stories, and left the tricky bits for freethinkers to explore.

I'm sure that's not true of all pastors, particularly if I were to go ask now.  Even as a college kid I couldn't get a straight answer, but maybe now I could.  But it's hard to justify putting concentrated effort into that, and not the multitude of other faiths...  Particularly after the giant lie of omission which was my experience with the Baptist church.

I'm an agnostic atheist and a dubious animist.  I believe in 0 gods instead of 1, but I have some faith in the idea of spirits for living and unliving things.  And there could be a god, so I'm not anti-theist, but I doubt it would match the Abrahamic one.  At least the classical portrayal of Him.
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2078 on: June 09, 2015, 02:42:17 am »

Mostly skipping the first question as I think it's been answered pretty well already.

I studied philosophy in college with a fair chunk dedicated to the philosophy of religion. My teacher was a Roman Catholic convert originally from the Church of England (Protestant). Any studies since then have been self guided. Before that I have my parents who were kind of Christian (Dad more than Mum), but they had a wider appreciation for religion and spirituality in general. Most of the extended family are devout Christians (only since early adulthood have I known my Granddad was non-believer) and clearly wanted me to be Christian (in retrospect the main reason I was religious). As is common in the UK most of my schools were affiliated with the Church of England which meant a fair bit of theology in both special lessons and assemblies with church visits for Christmas, Easter, and similar.
TL/DR: Most of my teachers and parental figures have been proponents.

I thought an anti-theist is someone who believes belief in gods is bad for humanity.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2079 on: June 09, 2015, 07:08:31 am »

.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 11:09:53 am by penguinofhonor »
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Helgoland

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2080 on: June 09, 2015, 07:13:26 am »

Great, now you've made me google ape sex positions.
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Telgin

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2081 on: June 09, 2015, 07:40:46 am »

As for the second question...  I'd say I've learned a more about Christianity from its proponents, and more about the Bible from its opponents.  Despite going to youth group and Bible studies (off and on) up through college.  The churches preached a few nice stories, and left the tricky bits for freethinkers to explore.

I'm sure that's not true of all pastors, particularly if I were to go ask now.  Even as a college kid I couldn't get a straight answer, but maybe now I could.  But it's hard to justify putting concentrated effort into that, and not the multitude of other faiths...  Particularly after the giant lie of omission which was my experience with the Baptist church.

That was my general experience as well as a kid, but the church I attend now has a pastor who merrily preaches the worst bits and freely admits that God kills babies sometimes if He thinks He should.  Naturally, he says that God only does this because babies always go to heaven and it can be used as a tool to get others to turn to Christianity.  Something like that.  I think this is more common with Pentecostal Holiness Protestant churches, who are definitely on the hardline side of any philosophical question in the Bible.  Better safe than sorry is the rule for them, no matter the inconvenience or how painful what they say sounds.  It's hard to argue when their rationale is that the alternative is to burn in Hell forever.

Anyway, I was raised as Pentecostal Holiness but after I started attending college I slowly lost any belief in any of it.  I don't consider myself an anti-theist because it's dangerous to think there can't be any god and know that, but there's enough lack of evidence and inconsistencies in my understanding of any organized religion to prevent me from accepting the existence of a god.
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TempAcc

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2082 on: June 09, 2015, 07:48:02 am »

There shall be no bonobos in the religion thread :v

I can relate to what penguin said. I attribute the growing disdain for spirituality and religion in general in North America and some parts of Europe due to the spread of increasingly fundamentalist and exclusory views, which were empowered in the advent of protestantism, in response to the catholic fundamentalism of old. If my spirituality was formed under the influence of most pastors, I'm pretty sure I'd either have become a fundamentalist myself or an atheist. This is why I have distanced myself from the church of england and protestant beliefs in general, and started studying religions through my own interest, in my own pace.

I've read stuff on Gnosticism, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, and most recently Spiritism and Hermeticism, but its hard to really understand a religion without taking into account the historical, social and cultural context of each.

It still helped me to greatly develop my spirituality, though, and if anything it helped me come to terms with existence a lot better. If anything, I'm a happier person now then before, and more hopeful. This is why I'm all for religion teaching in schools, but not the kind that is partial to one religion or another, just some sort of teaching that shows kids that there are multiple beliefs out there, so that they can pursue knowledge of them, if they want, later in their lives.
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2083 on: June 09, 2015, 08:23:24 am »

I started believing in religion as much as I did Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. As my other childhood beliefs decayed or were discarded, so too was religion. Originally I was more agnostic, but now if asked I'd say there is no God/s. I learned about the general fuzzy religion from Sunday School and my parents. My Dad I'm fairly certain falls into the "I doubt this is true but I've always done it" category, and my Mum falls into the "Don't blaspheme and follow God but not strongly" category. As such, neither had a faith-inducing impact on me. My granny was devout, but I never believed her views. I then learned about philosophy and actual, non-vague fuzzy stuff in high school, continuing to this day. Both schools had prpponents teaching, but I liked both.

Other learning came in the form of books by all religious types. All ny friends are proponents. One even threw a Dawkins book of mine down the hall, telling me it was rubbish and I was an idiot for reading it. (We didn't stay friends long after.) so I suppose another form of learning came from general immersion. I only know one other atheist.
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #2084 on: June 09, 2015, 08:56:06 am »

Finally coming to the question, is the aversion a matter of wanting to avoid a confusion of terminology (belief with faith)
This is usually the biggest reason for the aversion I've personally noticed. Atheism/agnosticism/etc. may be a belief, but it's not a belief in the same way a religion is, and most of the people that call atheism a belief seem to be the sorts that are trying to say it's explicitly the same as a religion, complete with tenants and rituals and all that rigmarole. And it's not. There's not even a secret handshake or somethin'. It's not a belief in the religious sense, it's a belief in the epistemological sense.

Atheism isn't even a loose confederation, really. There are some atheist groups of thought that do collaborate to degrees (this is why you do at times have atheists acknowledging each other as the same sort of critter in public), but that has little to do with the general belief itself. Calling atheism a confederation is about the same as calling people who like milk a confederation, y'know?

Quote
or is it a means of differentiating between spiritually and materialistically (I don't mean here the negative connotations, merely the relation to matter and natural laws) founded beliefs
Metaphysical and non-metaphysical would probably be better terms to use, heh. That's part of it, but as usual not the whole.

Quote
Secondly, Atheists and Agnostics, have you studied theologies and the philosophies that go with them?  Were you educated by its proponents-- not its opponents-- in them?  What about other atheists and agnostics you know?  As regards my own faith, who and/or what did you learn about Christianity from, if you have studied it?
Irreligious apatheist here, which is more or less a specific sort of agnostic. I've actually sunk a few years into theology, via philosophy education (I've said it before, I think, but I find theology to be very pretty.). Medieval christianity, general philosophy of religion, bit on eastern religions... most of it taught by a couple of christian priests, though I've since forgotten their denominations (and it wouldn't really matter for one of them, because that one was significantly radical). Beyond that, I grew up in an almost blanket christian area, and did go to church/sunday school for the earlier years of my life, though my parent was never particularly religious and regular churchgoing stopped probably around 5 or 6. I've never really been explicitly educated by opponents to any faith, much less christianity -- even the folks that weren't religious or some variant of theist were pretty okay with faith or religion as a general thing.

Unfortunately, beyond never experiencing the precise sorts of hallucinations that convince people their belief in a particular religion is true (I had different "religious experiences" that were unfortunately entirely too identifiable as hallucinations to convince myself otherwise), I, as mentioned, grew up in an area that is pretty much blanket christian and very, very vocal about it. Three churches in a two caution light town, that sort of thing. I've pretty much never actually, in person, seen the church or the faith produce something that wasn't toxic to some degree. I've met wonderful people whose love and light turned their faith into something that was positive -- some of the best folks I've ever met were religious of some sort -- but generally religion just seems to produce nastiness after nastiness. Comfort for the folks that are immediately involved (which, to be fair, is a certain sort of virtue), but gods help you if you're not.

That's where the irreligious comes from -- I've reached the point I'm fairly convinced that organized religion is a net negative. Individual faith of whatever sort I'm pretty okay with, but the organized sort just seems to consistently cause problems. Worst bit to me is that some of the worst problems always seem to be regarding following the religion itself -- few things seem as capable of leading a person to violate the tenants of their religion as a priest and congregation. For living in an area that preaches love as one of the highest tenants of their belief, I have seen a lot of hate in my lifetime :-\

Combined with the lack of any explicitly identifiable effect on the world, I got turned off pretty hard, and it eventually reached the point where consideration of the question of divinity has pretty much no meaning to me beyond idle amusement (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, per se. Idle amusement is good.). That's the apatheism -- I don't think the question of whether there's a god or not actually matters. The answer is irrelevant; the world changes naught one bit whether there is or isn't one, insofar as I've been able to tell. If you want to get me to care enough to really fall into a theist/atheist camp, you'd have to convince me it matters, that the existence or non-existence of a god actually has an effect on the world I observe. As it is, it's fun to talk about, but that's about it.

Doesn't help that the natures ascribed to the divine are generally pretty nasty themselves. I'm arguably happier with it not mattering than I would be if it did, heh.
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