Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


Pages: 1 ... 22 23 [24] 25 26 ... 525

Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 687557 times)

TD1

  • Bay Watcher
  • Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #345 on: January 29, 2015, 01:54:02 pm »

Yes, and God ordered the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, and animal in Canaan. What's the relevance?
Quote
God is not opposed to his followers killing people, as long as it's lawful.

God killing innocents is hypocritical, and conforms to the "do as I say, not as I do" thing.
Logged
Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination
  TD1 has claimed the title of Penblessed the Endless Fountain of Epics!
Sigtext!
Poetry Thread

Helgoland

  • Bay Watcher
  • No man is an island.
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #346 on: January 29, 2015, 02:04:00 pm »

To be fair, modern governments do the same thing.
Logged
The Bay12 postcard club
Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

TD1

  • Bay Watcher
  • Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #347 on: January 29, 2015, 02:05:09 pm »

And they're not seen to be the font of all goodness by anybody.
Logged
Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination
  TD1 has claimed the title of Penblessed the Endless Fountain of Epics!
Sigtext!
Poetry Thread

timferius

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #348 on: January 29, 2015, 02:18:20 pm »

Posting to watch and jump on the sorta-pagan-ish-sorta-witch-ish train if it be required.
Logged

mate888

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CRAZED]
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #349 on: January 29, 2015, 07:19:02 pm »

I'm going to do a bit of research into the possibly wrong information I have on satan/devil.
Tell me if I'm missing something that I have said on the matter without proper biblical backing.

1) Satan and lucifer are the same
2) Satan and other angels fell from heaven
3) Satan is one of god's most beautiful creations
4) Satan hates man
5) Satan is a generaly evil entity

E: autocorrect is dumb
1) That's correct. I think that Satan is actually the Hebrew word for "enemy"
2) That's correct, so it's erroneous to differenciate "fallen angels" from "demons" as they are just the same.
3) That's correct. The thing is that he was also the proudest. He tought that he could be a God, because of his beauty and intelligence being superior to that of the other angels. Many angels begun following him and decided to disobey God. You can tell that that didn't worked out well for him.
4) Well, he hates God and all of his creation. It's both hate and envy, as he sees that God's creations are superior to his (he created Hell, wich ended up being the most horrible thing on existence), so he wants to destroy and/or rule everything that God created instead.
5) Not generally, Satan IS evil itself. Only hate lives inside him, and everything releted to him must be avoided, despite he would try to decieve you to think otherwise.

Also, another thing about the Devil, is that even though we reference it as "him", he is an angel, and angels are genderless. So Satan and demons in general are genderless too.
Also, unlike the non-abrahamic religions, there are several demons, but Satan is the only one with a name (several names actually).
Logged
My second turn's unnoficial goal was to turn everyone into vampires, and it backfired so bad, I ended up making the fort a more efficient, safer and friendlier place.
Apparently they evolved a taste for everything I love and care about

Orange Wizard

  • Bay Watcher
  • mou ii yo
    • View Profile
    • S M U G
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #350 on: January 29, 2015, 07:44:36 pm »

Yes, and God ordered the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, and animal in Canaan. What's the relevance?
Quote
God is not opposed to his followers killing people, as long as it's lawful.
God killing innocents is hypocritical, and conforms to the "do as I say, not as I do" thing.
That's the thing. Nobody is innocent by God's judgement. I'm aware that it appears needlessly harsh, but there you go.
Logged
Please don't shitpost, it lowers the quality of discourse
Hard science is like a sword, and soft science is like fear. You can use both to equally powerful results, but even if your opponent disbelieve your stabs, they will still die.

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #351 on: January 29, 2015, 07:48:07 pm »

[snip]
You wouldn't happen to be able to provide verses and whatnot backing that up, would you?
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

Rolan7

  • Bay Watcher
  • [GUE'VESA][BONECARN]
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #352 on: January 29, 2015, 07:55:42 pm »

I'm going to do a bit of research into the possibly wrong information I have on satan/devil.
Tell me if I'm missing something that I have said on the matter without proper biblical backing.

1) Satan and lucifer are the same
2) Satan and other angels fell from heaven
3) Satan is one of god's most beautiful creations
4) Satan hates man
5) Satan is a generaly evil entity

E: autocorrect is dumb
1) That's correct. I think that Satan is actually the Hebrew word for "enemy"
2) That's correct, so it's erroneous to differenciate "fallen angels" from "demons" as they are just the same.
3) That's correct. The thing is that he was also the proudest. He tought that he could be a God, because of his beauty and intelligence being superior to that of the other angels. Many angels begun following him and decided to disobey God. You can tell that that didn't worked out well for him.
4) Well, he hates God and all of his creation. It's both hate and envy, as he sees that God's creations are superior to his (he created Hell, wich ended up being the most horrible thing on existence), so he wants to destroy and/or rule everything that God created instead.
5) Not generally, Satan IS evil itself. Only hate lives inside him, and everything releted to him must be avoided, despite he would try to decieve you to think otherwise.

Also, another thing about the Devil, is that even though we reference it as "him", he is an angel, and angels are genderless. So Satan and demons in general are genderless too.
Also, unlike the non-abrahamic religions, there are several demons, but Satan is the only one with a name (several names actually).
Is that all supported by the Bible, though?
For instance, as someone already pointed out, Lucifer is only mentioned in the Bible once - Isaiah 14:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/is/14.html#12

There's a lot of evidence that Lucifer, Light-Bringer, meant the current King of Babylon.
Quote from: Isaiah 14
14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
So far, looks like Satan.  Matches the story of Satan leading fallen angels in rebellion, though I haven't checked for Biblical basis of that story yet.
But then:
Quote from: Isaiah 14
14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Future tense - the subject hasn't been cast into hell yet.
Quote from: Isaiah 14
14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
The subject is a "man".  Note that angels have fearsome, inhuman visages such as being made of burning wheels.
Quote from: Isaiah 14
14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
The subject had a prison (despite not being in Hell yet) and is being blamed for not opening it.  And he destroyed cities.  An unjust king could do these things.  Satan never destroyed cities (just God), and he doesn't have the ability to release souls from Hell.  And again, the subject isn't even in Hell yet, so it's definitely not the prison being referred to.
Quote from: Isaiah 14
14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
The subject will not be buried with other kings of nations, because he destroyed his land and killed his people.  Clearly he was a mortal king.
Logged
She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #353 on: January 29, 2015, 08:20:04 pm »

That's the thing. Nobody is innocent by God's judgement. I'm aware that it appears needlessly harsh, but there you go.
If God is incapable of finding people innocent then he isn't a just being, just some sort of crazed executioner.  He set everything off anyway, seems a bit rich to complain when he should have been able to see it coming
Logged

ggamer

  • Bay Watcher
  • Reach Heaven through Violence
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #354 on: January 29, 2015, 10:42:33 pm »

@Leafsnail I promise I'll answer this later

What is it called when someone thinks that morals/ethics plainly exist, like the laws of physics and mathematics? The only word I can come up with is cop-out and that's hilarious but not exactly what i'm looking for.

MaximumZero

  • Bay Watcher
  • Stare into the abyss.
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #355 on: January 29, 2015, 10:52:42 pm »

That would be Objective Morality, vs Subjective Morality (which means that you think there is no one singular morality.)
Logged
  
Holy crap, why did I not start watching One Punch Man earlier? This is the best thing.
probably figured an autobiography wouldn't be interesting

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #356 on: January 29, 2015, 11:18:41 pm »

Yeah.  The idea is generally supported by the notion that somehow if there's no "objective" morality then there's no answer to typical moral relativism arguments.

I don't think there are any kind of objective moral laws, but I do think you can build a system of morality from simple first principles, such as the "golden rule".  These principles are required in a functioning society, and it is therefore fairly simple to demonstrate that enforcing the moral system that arises from them is ultimately in everybody's interests.

I don't think it's productive to claim that morals are somehow inherent to the universe rather than built up through careful ethical thought.  All too often random stuff gets added according to the prejudices of whoever claims this divine revelation (usually it's "fuck the gays").
Logged

ggamer

  • Bay Watcher
  • Reach Heaven through Violence
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #357 on: January 29, 2015, 11:51:07 pm »

I just did this topic in ethics so I've already been thinking about this a lot

I feel like certain morals are objectively true. For example, killing is wrong, so is stealing, breaking promises, etc.

No matter how you stretch it, these things are never right. Even if you must kill someone in self-defense, the murder is not morally correct. Even if you have to steal to survive, the theft is not morally correct.

From these, less fundamental morals come around, i.e. ideas on homosexuality, abortion, what have you.

Basically the true answer lies somewhere inbetween Objective and Subjective truth

i know i probably fucked this up somehow

lemon10

  • Bay Watcher
  • Citrus Master
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #358 on: January 29, 2015, 11:56:44 pm »

Quote from: Rolan7 link=topic=147792.msg5995861#msg5995861
[quote author=Isaiah 14
14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
The subject is a "man".  Note that angels have fearsome, inhuman visages such as being made of burning wheels.
[/quote]
Just a minor correction. Angels can look look like men when acting on earth, so while they do look like that in heaven, they don't look like that on earth.

That said, the passage does seem to imply rather strongly that he is a proper human.
Logged
And with a mighty leap, the evil Conservative flies through the window, escaping our heroes once again!
Because the solution to not being able to control your dakka is MOAR DAKKA.

That's it. We've finally crossed over and become the nation of Da Orky Boyz.

Cryxis, Prince of Doom

  • Bay Watcher
  • Achievment *Fail freshman year uni*
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #359 on: January 30, 2015, 12:25:11 am »

Going to shut my mouth on abortion
Don't want a flame war



Ya morals do kinda fall into separate categories
Always true and opinional


E: wrote the wrong thing woops
Logged
Fueled by caffeine, nicotine, and a surprisingly low will to live.
Cryxis makes the best typos.
Pages: 1 ... 22 23 [24] 25 26 ... 525