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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[chaoticag]

The Bible says that Lucifer is bound until Judgment Day, when presumably they will be burned with the chaff or be deemed to have repented and will be gathered up.

It... kinda' doesn't, because lucifer isn't... isn't the thing. From the strictly biblical perspective. What people have taken to calling lucifer may be, depending on whether the thing being talked about in that particular passage is actually the same thing talked about in others (which is significantly debatable). But lucifer (halel) is mentioned something like precisely once, and not in relation to that.

Poor ol' scratch is shoehorned into doing so very much nowadays ;_; Mistaken identities, mis-attributed acts, slander of character... if the thing existed, it could totally sue the blazes out of the churches for libel. Critter would have enough grounds for civil suits to rebuild babel. And all that mostly for being one of YWHW's test proctors.

Doesn't the bible passages afterwards just point it as a title for King Nebuchadnezzar in Issia 14? Is there anyone else Lucifer might be?

[Helgoland]

If we're going to discuss trinity, I have to post this.

Cooome ooon, Paatrick!

[Frumple]

Doesn't the bible passages afterwards just point it as a title for King Nebuchadnezzar in Issia 14? Is there anyone else Lucifer might be?

Vaguely remember something along those lines, for that first bit. As for the second, well, people've mangled it into all sort of things over the years, apparently. As demonstrated by th'fact it's commonly assumed to be th'adversary's name, ha.

[That Wolf]

Arx are you open to reading the Bhagavad gita?
Its a good read, if you are good at reading alot of it makes sense.

That's the Hindu holy text, yes?

I am open to that. Do you recommend it (and on what basis)?

I highly recommend it, as far as the you shall worship no gods before me etc it has a phrase that goes something like.
Why water the leaves when you can water the roots.
Its a beautiful text and I would suggest it to all open to reading about religons.

And for the sake of arguement. Why has this turned into a christianty thread
Is it a majority thing? Not offended, I just grew up with the stuff and its very... boring.

[MonkeyHead]

Arx are you open to reading the Bhagavad gita?
Its a good read, if you are good at reading alot of it makes sense.

That's the Hindu holy text, yes?

I am open to that. Do you recommend it (and on what basis)?

I highly recommend it, as far as the you shall worship no gods before me etc it has a phrase that goes something like.
Why water the leaves when you can water the roots.
Its a beautiful text and I would suggest it to all open to reading about religons.

And for the sake of arguement. Why has this turned into a christianty thread
Is it a majority thing? Not offended, I just grew up with the stuff and its very... boring.

Most posters here are westerners, so most of us will run into one of the many forms of Christianity far more than any other faith.

[Frumple]

Yeah, more or less. Most folks here are either christian or some variety of non-religious that grew up around them/as one. There's a smattering of other stuff mumbling around, but other things are definitely underrepresented among the forum-goers. Or at least the ones that risk talking on the subject, anyway

[Arx]

Pretty much. If you consider the number of Christians active here compared to the number in total, it seems likely that even if there are othe religious people they're not piping up.

I don't blame them. These threads can get quite hostile.

[TD1]

Much like any discussion thread, though. And most of the time it's absolutely fine.

[That Wolf]

Yeah I thought it was overly western.
So seeing you know the 'rights and wrongs' of the world, why do you read pointless texts when you could be in contemplative meditation like all the great sages of this world who wrote many of the texts?.
why water the leaves when you can water the roots?

[Rolan7]

Lucifer's kinda like Christmas and Easter.  A really cool story which resonates with pagans - because it was almost entirely taken from pagans - and incorporated into Christianity to convert pagans.

The Trinity's the same way.  You have the vengeful god of war, death and authority (Odin), the valiant savior with ties to farming (Thor), and the nebulous spirit which watches over daily life.  Then there's the eeevil antagonist who betrayed the others and tries to lead people astray, don't fall for his lies (Loki).

In this way the missionaries didn't have to convince people that their gods were false, just misunderstood.  They were able to ease people in to monotheism by stages.  The celebration of lengthening days becomes was always a celebration of the birth of Jesus (the farmer god).  The Spring equinox celebrates the reincarnation of dormant flowers Jesus.  They were actually worshiping Jesus all along, they just didn't know it yet.

Never mind that none of those inventions are based on scripture.  The local people couldn't read Latin, only the clergy had that skill.  Which is why a major part of the Reformation was the Church trying to stop the Bible from being translated...  It *needed* to be kept secret, or people would question all the embellishments which made it palatable.  Or so the Church feared.

Instead, hundreds of years later, Christians are desperately guarding co-opted pagan celebrations like Christmas as vital tenets of their faith.  And blaming everything on Lucifer, or Satan the satyr goat-hooved carouser and troublemaker.  They wildly overestimated how important the Bible was to actual Christians, compared to the traditions they invented.

[That Wolf]

You forgot holyspirit of reicarnation which is baldur

[scrdest]

Lucifer's kinda like Christmas and Easter.  A really cool story which resonates with pagans - because it was almost entirely taken from pagans - and incorporated into Christianity to convert pagans.

The Trinity's the same way.  You have the vengeful god of war, death and authority (Odin), the valiant savior with ties to farming (Thor), and the nebulous spirit which watches over daily life.  Then there's the eeevil antagonist who betrayed the others and tries to lead people astray, don't fall for his lies (Loki).

In this way the missionaries didn't have to convince people that their gods were false, just misunderstood.  They were able to ease people in to monotheism by stages.  The celebration of lengthening days becomes was always a celebration of the birth of Jesus (the farmer god).  The Spring equinox celebrates the reincarnation of dormant flowers Jesus.  They were actually worshiping Jesus all along, they just didn't know it yet.

Never mind that none of those inventions are based on scripture.  The local people couldn't read Latin, only the clergy had that skill.  Which is why a major part of the Reformation was the Church trying to stop the Bible from being translated...  It *needed* to be kept secret, or people would question all the embellishments which made it palatable.  Or so the Church feared.

Instead, hundreds of years later, Christians are desperately guarding co-opted pagan celebrations like Christmas as vital tenets of their faith.  And blaming everything on Lucifer, or Satan the satyr goat-hooved carouser and troublemaker.  They wildly overestimated how important the Bible was to actual Christians, compared to the traditions they invented.

I would be cautious with making parallels between Norse mythology and Christianity. The main, major problem with Norse mythology the scholars encountered is that the most common sources we have are works of Christian-era writers documenting them. Even assuming impartiality of the writer, they were written at a time where the original stories have been heavily influenced by Christianity itself; so it very well might be not that Christians co-opted Norse gods' attributes but instead Norse myths have been co-opting elements from Christianity.

[Orange Wizard]

I always found it funny that Easter still has the rabbit eggs (or whatever they're supposed to be) while the lengthening of days has been replaced by a fat guy in a red suit and the "spirit of giving". Because these things are totally relevant, right guys?

...

You forgot holyspirit of reicarnation which is baldur

Well, the series did drag on a fair bit...

...

Much like any discussion thread, though. And most of the time it's absolutely fine.

I WILL CRUSH THE HOSTILITY

[TD1]

No, I will crush the hostility!

Possibly by crushing you!

Also, the whole warrior god/farming god was also very much seen in Ares/Mars. The Romans associated him with agriculture as well as war.

[That Wolf]

I always found it funny that Easter still has the rabbit eggs (or whatever they're supposed to be) while the lengthening of days has been replaced by a fat guy in a red suit and the "spirit of giving". Because these things are totally relevant, right guys?

...

You forgot holyspirit of reicarnation which is baldur

Well, the series did drag on a fair bit...

...

Much like any discussion thread, though. And most of the time it's absolutely fine.

I WILL CRUSH THE HOSTILITY

Ughh orange wizard, the baldurs gate reference was terrible, bought back memories though.
And yeah so far theres being no hostility but the first sign of it would mean ignorance. The opposite of this thread.