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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[k33n]

Indeed. They are definitely of benefit to many people. However, they're so subjective that at the very least there must be multiple gods.

Considering the effect that the religions have had on human civilization and history at no point can it be said that they have been a benefit.

The concept of a super being(s) that is essentially a human mind standing outside the universe is literally insane. At the very best the only god that can be considered is one of blind math that has yet to have any impact on reality save for starting the rules, and thus is only considered a god by a desperate stretch to keep the term relevant.

[TD1]

Yes, but contrary to Nietzsche's claim that religion is injurious to society, it can still be seen as doing good. Even if you only view it as a small nugget in an otherwise contemptible sea of hate and bigotry, it does some good.

It also does bad things, but so does every organisation. We have to take the good with the bad, and make sure the bad, repressive bits don't get out of control.

As for the validity of heaven and all that what not, and the concept of a monotheistic, Abrahamic God, I too agree it's exceedingly unlikely.

[k33n]

Yes, but contrary to Nietzsche's claim that religion is injurious to society, it can still be seen as doing good. Even if you only view it as a small nugget in an otherwise contemptible sea of hate and bigotry, it does some good.

It also does bad things, but so does every organisation. We have to take the good with the bad, and make sure the bad, repressive bits don't get out of control.

As for the validity of heaven and all that what not, and the concept of a monotheistic, Abrahamic God, I too agree it's exceedingly unlikely.

The issue is that all the good things that religion can bring are not specific to religion nor invented by it, but all the bad things, such as hellfire, jihad, heresy, and sanctioned divine murder are and were.

[TD1]

Nah, you could argue that it would remain the same without religion. Religion is the tool, the people that use it are either good or bad.

Yes, the only thing to make good people do bad things is religion, but it's also the only thing to make bad people do good things.

[k33n]

Nah, you could argue that it would remain the same without religion. Religion is the tool, the people that use it are either good or bad.

This sounds like an opinion of someone who has never studied theology or read any religious documents. Religion is a written code of behaviors and actions with written consequences. It is ideas, and ideas that give way to action.

It is Christianity that is to blame for the anti-gay movements in the west, it is Islam to blame for the constantly beheading and suicide bombings in West Eurasia, and it is Buddhism that is responsible for self immolation in protests.

The theology of each of these religions has clear, specific passages and instructions that condone or encourage these behaviors. To see someone who reads these things, says the action they commit are because of these ideas, and commits them and then say that religion was just a meaningless content-less blur that cannot be held responsible is a position of complete ignorance.

[Arx]

I think you'll find that much of what religion is used to justify isn't actually justified by religion. Also, saying Dwarfy hasn't read any theological documents reflects very poorly on the rest of your argument; he's probably read more than anyone else in this thread, possibly barring LordBucket if he reappears.

[k33n]

I think you'll find that much of what religion is used to justify isn't actually justified by religion. Also, saying Dwarfy hasn't read any theological documents reflects very poorly on the rest of your argument; he's probably read more than anyone else in this thread, possibly barring LordBucket if he reappears.

I am an apostate, fluent in religion and have read the holy texts of most religions. I own copies of most. Each religion explicitly justifies inhuman behavior, and in Islam and Christianity it is the central tenants. To say that they do not is a position of complete ignorance, and it certainly make someone sound as if they haven't read the texts.

[Arx]

I see.

Whosoever believes in me shall not perish, but shall have eternal life.

...

I tell you, the greatest commandment is this: love the Lord your God with all your heart. The second is like it: love your neighbour as you love yourself.

...

Do unto others as you would have them do to you. This sums up the law and the prophets.

Those are the most central tenets of Christianity. They cannot be used to justify anything inhuman.

[k33n]

I see.

Whosoever believes in me shall not perish, but shall have eternal life.

...

I tell you, the greatest commandment is this: love the Lord your God with all your heart. The second is like it: love your neighbour as you love yourself.

...

Do unto others as you would have them do to you. This sums up the law and the prophets.

Those are the most central tenets of Christianity. They cannot be used to justify anything inhuman.

You have quote mined the only good phrases in a 1500 page book about killing the infidel and an enraged childish deity obsessed with our genitals, not to mention the first quote can and has been used to justify killing and torturing the infidel and heretic lest they lead people or themselves astray from Eternal Life.

[Arx]

Do you want Jesus to be more clear about "This sums up the Law and the Prophets"?

If you continue to disagree with me, we need to break this argument off because I suspect neither of us will back down, and I'm somewhat stressed for other reasons. If you're willing to cite specific issues you have I'll tackle them.

[Helgoland]

It also does bad things, but so does every organisation. We have to take the good with the bad, and make sure the bad, repressive bits don't get out of control.

Dwarfy, have I been getting through to you?

And k33n, do notice the 'discussion' bit in the thread title. You can of course make a 'Rant-y religion bashing' thread, but I doubt it would stay civil for long...

[k33n]

It also does bad things, but so does every organisation. We have to take the good with the bad, and make sure the bad, repressive bits don't get out of control.

Dwarfy, have I been getting through to you?

And k33n, do notice the 'discussion' bit in the thread title. You can of course make a 'Rant-y religion bashing' thread, but I doubt it would stay civil for long...

Just because my points are controversial and I am ready to back them up does not mean that I am ranting or unwilling to discuss. My original point was that spirituality has been co opted by religion, and that spirituality is inherently good while religion is inherently bad.

Like I said earlier, the first two tenants that Arx has said are key to Christianity and are impossible to get anti-human ideas from:

#1 Whosoever believes in me shall not perish, but shall have eternal life.

and

#2 I tell you, the greatest commandment is this: love the Lord your God with all your heart. The second is like it: love your neighbour as you love yourself.

Have both been coherently used to justify horrible actions and restrictive anti-human worldviews.

[Arx]

I did notice that Dwarfy and I were somehow on the same side of a point. It's disorienting.

Also k33n, I will tackle them in about 15 hours if you post them. I should be asleep right now.

[Orange Wizard]

Just because my points are controversial and I am ready to back them up does not mean that I am ranting or unwilling to discuss.

Your points are less controversial and more... unsubstantiated. You have yet to back up a single claim.

My original point was that spirituality has been co opted by religion, and that spirituality is inherently good while religion is inherently bad.

[citation needed]

#1 Whosoever believes in me shall not perish, but shall have eternal life.
and
#2 I tell you, the greatest commandment is this: love the Lord your God with all your heart. The second is like it: love your neighbour as you love yourself.
Have both been coherently used to justify horrible actions and restrictive anti-human worldviews.

Again, [citation needed].

...

If all you can do is fling around a Dawkins-esque argument of "religion is terribad hurr durr", I'm going to have to ask you to leave. I don't want to do that, of course, but there is a line between discussion and flaming.

[Helgoland]

Yes, 'controversial' is not what comes to mind when reading your posts. 'Euphoric' is closer.