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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 681327 times)

hector13

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7155 on: April 11, 2023, 08:39:34 pm »

Conveniently glossing over the Crusades. Also the early part of the Reformstion, and the back and forth murder of Catholics and Protestants depending on who was in charge.

Thou Shalt Not Kill, unless your priest says it’s okay.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

MaxTheFox

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7156 on: April 11, 2023, 10:14:52 pm »

I don't really care about those other historical atrocities either. Fuck does it affect me? Me believing or not believing won't bring those people back.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2023, 10:19:21 pm by MaxTheFox »
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Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless. What will you do on the day of reckoning, when disaster comes from afar?

hector13

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7157 on: April 11, 2023, 10:34:30 pm »

Fuck does it affect me?

Sounds about right.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

Telgin

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7158 on: April 11, 2023, 10:52:32 pm »

Playing god's advocate here: Given the flaws and unreliability of human memory and perception, I don't see how the accounts of many people given 2000 years ago could be any other way but inconsistent.  Yet somehow still, a meta-analysis of their meaning, and even also including other religions, seems to converge together.  No 2 people can experience the same event exactly the same, so even without the addition of human error, the accounts would necessarily be different.  Add in linguistic and cultural differences across the ages, and there is a broad spectrum of beliefs in our modern world that all appear quite different, but I suspect have a lot more in common than not.

It's a pretty core belief among some Christians at least that the Bible is supposed to be divinely inspired and all, so with that is supposed to be inerrancy.  It's hard to be inerrant if there are contradictory statements.

As an aside, I find it funny that some of the more fundamentalist Protestants seem to believe that the only true version of the Bible is the King James Version, and I wonder sometimes if those people think the Bible was originally written in early modern English.  They think trying to retranslate it into modern English is a vile sin for some reason.  I wonder how they feel about the Bible being translated to other languages.

Otherwise, I don't disagree with you.
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MaxTheFox

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7159 on: April 11, 2023, 11:00:00 pm »

Eh, honestly the Bible has been mistranslated enough that anyone interpreting most of it in any way other than metaphorical is misguided, stupid, or actively malicious.
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Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless. What will you do on the day of reckoning, when disaster comes from afar?

hector13

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7160 on: April 11, 2023, 11:03:43 pm »

That’s a pretty good excuse for being able to pick and choose which bits should be adhered to.

“Well it says that, but what it really means is this.”
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

Strongpoint

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7161 on: April 11, 2023, 11:14:29 pm »

Conveniently glossing over the Crusades. Also the early part of the Reformstion, and the back and forth murder of Catholics and Protestants depending on who was in charge.

Thou Shalt Not Kill, unless your priest says it’s okay.

You forgot modern Russian priests calling for genocide. Or modern Russian priests saying certain things about LGBT people like her.


What would such a disproof even look like? A philosophical takedown of my values? If someone can convince me my core values are wrong, sure... but good luck. Not happening.

Who said that your values should change? You know, I, like many atheists, was a theist in my younger years. I didn't notice that I started believing that murder and rape are suddenly OK once I concluded that "holy texts" have nothing divine in them and there is no single piece of evidence that I am somehow immortal

I did stop believing nonsense like "abortion is murder" but those were hardly my core values and GOOD RIDDANCE.
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hector13

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7162 on: April 11, 2023, 11:19:07 pm »

Oh I didn’t forget, there a just a whole lot of atrocity over human history that has been justified by religion, it’s easy to miss bits.

I mean, even today the biggest religions prop up things like misogyny, child abuse, and fraud.

To be perfectly honest the whole “don’t take the book literally” allows a whole lot of leeway for people to “interpret” it in a manner that benefits them at others’ expense. It seems a bit pointless to have a holy book if different people can take different things from it.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

MaxTheFox

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7163 on: April 12, 2023, 12:18:57 am »

That’s a pretty good excuse for being able to pick and choose which bits should be adhered to.

“Well it says that, but what it really means is this.”
Well yes, I interpret what feels right to me. Actually, most mainstream theologians don't interpret it literally either so authority is on my side too.

What would such a disproof even look like? A philosophical takedown of my values? If someone can convince me my core values are wrong, sure... but good luck. Not happening.

Who said that your values should change? You know, I, like many atheists, was a theist in my younger years. I didn't notice that I started believing that murder and rape are suddenly OK once I concluded that "holy texts" have nothing divine in them and there is no single piece of evidence that I am somehow immortal

I did stop believing nonsense like "abortion is murder" but those were hardly my core values and GOOD RIDDANCE.
Well answer my question then. And I had far worse core values before converting, to be entirely honest. As for the priests, I am not specifically of Russian Orthodox, so I can say that Kirill can go and... oh wait I swore to not go into fantasies on this forum anymore.

It seems a bit pointless to have a holy book if different people can take different things from it.
I don't think everything in life should be objectively defined. If people interpret it in a bad way sucks for them I guess. I don't see why I should care about them when it's my personal beliefs.
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Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless. What will you do on the day of reckoning, when disaster comes from afar?

Strongpoint

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7164 on: April 12, 2023, 12:35:58 am »

What question?
Well yes, I interpret what feels right to me. Actually, most mainstream theologians don't interpret it literally either so authority is on my side too.

There is a huge leap between "The Bible is full of allegories and hard to understand" followed by mainstream theologians and "I pick and choose what is inerrant and what is not based on my feelings."

Quote
Well answer my question then. And I had far worse core values before converting, to be entirely honest.

I don't know what you even mean by core values. I assume those are stuff like "rape is wrong" and then I don't think that it comes from your religious beliefs. It comes from your empathy, reason, logic, and experiences.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7165 on: April 12, 2023, 12:48:53 am »

I feel sorta bad for jumping into this conversation because it sorta feels like a bunch of non religious people trying to grill a religion person who doesn't seem that interested in the content of their grilling and I feel like I'd just be another one on the pile, but I can't help myself from asking a few questions that I have, I hope you don't mind Max :P

I have long since decided that my religious beliefs are immune to logic and thus I will never deconvert. There is no atheist argument that can convince me to, because I believe religion and secular stuff must be kept fully separate-- and that separation includes rationality. I apply it to science or beliefs opposed to Christianity however, in fact I am proud to be a skeptic.

Why did you choose Christianity? Do you think that if you lived in a place predominantly some other religion that you would have become that religion instead? I hope these questions aren't... Uh... too personal. The first one I know can sometimes be very personal to some people so don't feel pressured to answer if you don't want to of course!
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hector13

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7166 on: April 12, 2023, 02:00:25 am »

If people interpret it in a bad way it tends to go badly for other people, though.

You, identifying as LGBTQ, are haram in the vast majority of strands of Christianity, and probably all the other major religions in the world. You could take the Rasputin tack that in order to be forgiven you need to sin first, but I’m pretty sure you have to be sorry for, like, being you, which I think is a little ridiculous. We’re taught that humans are made in god’s image, so is the existence of non-heteronormatives god’s image or people tempted in some capacity by [insert your Big Bad of choice here]?

Why should theologians be considered authorities in this anyway? They’re human beings, they aren’t privy to what god is or wants.


So yeah, when you say things like people interpreting scripture badly, or that rationality should be kept separate from spiritual matters, you are basically, from my perspective, justifying either not thinking about things enough and could misinterpret something - willfully or otherwise - or you are ceding decision making to some sort of “authority”, who is just as informed as you on a deity’s will; both can be used to justify interpreting things in a way that mistreating anyone is god’s will, which is wholly unacceptable.

Indeed, as an example, it seems like the vast majority of religions don’t allow women to serve as priests or the equivalent, which makes zero sense. Women are at least as capable as men at providing teaching and guidance. Even in strands of Christianity that do allow women in these positions, there are still people within them that think they are somehow incapable of performing their duties and that you can’t accept the sacrament from them, or others ordained by them.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

Strongpoint

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7167 on: April 12, 2023, 03:00:45 am »

Quote
You, identifying as LGBTQ, are haram in the vast majority of strands of Christianity, and probably all the other major religions in the world. You could take the Rasputin tack that in order to be forgiven you need to sin first, but I’m pretty sure you have to be sorry for, like, being you, which I think is a little ridiculous. We’re taught that humans are made in god’s image, so is the existence of non-heteronormatives god’s image or people tempted in some capacity by [insert your Big Bad of choice here]?

One of the more disgusting aspects of Christianity is that one should be guilty not only for their actions but for their thoughts and desires, too. Even if you are a devout Christian who accepted that homosexual sex is a sin and restrain yourself, you still must despise yourself for merely wanting it and be grateful that God loves such a pathetic being as you.
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MaxTheFox

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7168 on: April 12, 2023, 04:16:24 am »

Responses in bold because splitting quotes is too much effort.

What question? "How would you disprove Christian dogma?"
Well yes, I interpret what feels right to me. Actually, most mainstream theologians don't interpret it literally either so authority is on my side too.

There is a huge leap between "The Bible is full of allegories and hard to understand" followed by mainstream theologians and "I pick and choose what is inerrant and what is not based on my feelings." It all boils down to interpretation in the end. I interpret it this way.

Quote
Well answer my question then. And I had far worse core values before converting, to be entirely honest.

I don't know what you even mean by core values. I assume those are stuff like "rape is wrong" and then I don't think that it comes from your religious beliefs. It comes from your empathy, reason, logic, and experiences. I don't know how to put it to words.

Why did you choose Christianity? Do you think that if you lived in a place predominantly some other religion that you would have become that religion instead? I hope these questions aren't... Uh... too personal. The first one I know can sometimes be very personal to some people so don't feel pressured to answer if you don't want to of course!
Very personal reasons. I don't feel comfy saying to randoms on a forum.

Since I became a Protestant after being raised Orthodox, then becoming an atheist, I feel I'd flip to Protestantism no matter where I lived. But you know the idiom. "If my grandma had wheels, she'd be a bike."

If people interpret it in a bad way it tends to go badly for other people, though.
Yes and since it is a personal belief others interpreting it in a bad way doesn't really matter to me. I will consider them idiots.

You, identifying as LGBTQ, are haram in the vast majority of strands of Christianity, and probably all the other major religions in the world. You could take the Rasputin tack that in order to be forgiven you need to sin first, but I’m pretty sure you have to be sorry for, like, being you, which I think is a little ridiculous. We’re taught that humans are made in god’s image, so is the existence of non-heteronormatives god’s image or people tempted in some capacity by [insert your Big Bad of choice here]?
Actually it's mostly the fundamentalists who would consider me haram. The specific sect I am in doesn't really care as it's a progressive one. So your whole argument kind of falls apart. I don't know if non-heteronormativity is "in God's image" and honestly I don't care enough to think about it much.

Why should theologians be considered authorities in this anyway? They’re human beings, they aren’t privy to what god is or wants.
Because they studied the Bible for years or decades and thus I will listen to them over myself (or people who never actually read the Bible).


So yeah, when you say things like people interpreting scripture badly, or that rationality should be kept separate from spiritual matters, you are basically, from my perspective, justifying either not thinking about things enough and could misinterpret something - willfully or otherwise - or you are ceding decision making to some sort of “authority”, who is just as informed as you on a deity’s will; both can be used to justify interpreting things in a way that mistreating anyone is god’s will, which is wholly unacceptable.
Yes I am ceding it to authority-- but specifically the authority of progressive churches. I trust them enough and value self-reliance little enough to feel comfortable doing so. Authority is fine if I agree with said authority.

Indeed, as an example, it seems like the vast majority of religions don’t allow women to serve as priests or the equivalent, which makes zero sense. Women are at least as capable as men at providing teaching and guidance. Even in strands of Christianity that do allow women in these positions, there are still people within them that think they are somehow incapable of performing their duties and that you can’t accept the sacrament from them, or others ordained by them.
Tell me how this affects me.

Like what it boils down to-- why should I care about what the fundamentalists think of me for being myself, if my chosen sect is progressive and accepts me, and I consider it "the real Christianity"? Before you ask, I refuse to take some nebulous "responsibility".
« Last Edit: April 12, 2023, 04:23:31 am by MaxTheFox »
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Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless. What will you do on the day of reckoning, when disaster comes from afar?

MaxTheFox

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7169 on: April 12, 2023, 04:34:03 am »

Also I don't mind being grilled like this-- I won't actually deconvert from someone I don't actually know, but it's helping me learn why I believe. So thanks for that.
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Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless. What will you do on the day of reckoning, when disaster comes from afar?
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