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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

115 (44.7%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.7%)

Total Members Voted: 252

[TheSteppeWolf]

I was taught that Hell consists of undescribable torture before you reincarnate if you were a crap person. Like having hot metal sticks impaled through all your orifices also eyes while being skinned alive, and regenerated. For particularly vile people (like Hitler or Mao), it can last for millions of years, while they are fully awake and conscious. And then their soul is destroyed. That is mercy for those people.

And they deserve every last bit of it and more.

[MaxTheFox]

I was taught that Hell consists of undescribable torture before you reincarnate if you were a crap person. Like having hot metal sticks impaled through all your orifices also eyes while being skinned alive, and regenerated. For particularly vile people (like Hitler or Mao), it can last for millions of years, while they are fully awake and conscious. And then their soul is destroyed. That is mercy for those people.

And they deserve every last bit of it and more.

Based.

[Eschar]

I was taught and believed hell consisted of that sort of torture... for anyone by default (those who were unbelievers/non-Christian). And annihilation was not in the cards, either.

[McTraveller]

Eh, I've never understood the view of hell as eternal torture of that form. I've always understood it to mean "eternity without the presence of God."  So basically life on Earth, but with none of the redeeming qualities.  Eternal despair, never having a moment of peace.  Always wanting more, and never getting enough.

I've also come to realize that it's likely we are not "sent to hell" as punishment, but that "separate from God" is our default condition, and we can only be "saved out of" that present state.  This is markedly different from philosophies that say humans start good or neutral (which are not Biblical views to be sure).

"Torment" is an inevitable result of being separate from God - it's not something that is "added."  It's what you get if people are left to their own devices.

[HmH]

And they deserve every last bit of it and more.

That's an interesting phrase.
How does one measure the amount of torture any given person deserves?

Suppose you're driving down a road, not violating any rules.
Suddenly, a little kid runs onto the road and gets splattered against your bumper. (Addendum: he emerges too close and too suddenly for you to stop the car in time.)
After that, his mother looks up from her phone and sees what happened.

From the mother's point of view, you killed her kid and deserve to be flayed alive and sewn back together for no less than seven million years.
From your point of view, it's the mother's own fault for not watching her child next to a busy road, and you deserve anywhere from 0 seconds to (if you're feeling really bad for her) 2 weeks of torture.
From outside observer 1's point of view, it's the mother that's at fault for bringing a child into this world and then neglecting him in dangerous circumstances; she's the one who should get punished, not you.
From outside observer 2's point of view, you are a child-murderer no matter the circumstances and therefore, by definition, deserve to be sandwiched by obese lawyers with acid-coated strap-ons for no less than 102 years and 3 months. The neglectful mother, in turn, should be waterboarded for seven days and seven hours. (Nothing personal, it's what his denomination says your actions deserve.)
From outside observer 3's point of view, the kid ran out onto the road of his own free will, so no one should get punished; punishing either of two people for the free choice of a third would be wrong.

So... everyone has a different opinion on what punishment you (and the neglectful mother) would deserve in such a situation.
Even in a really clear-cut case, the one who has wronged and the one who was wronged will usually disagree on that amount, because the one who has wronged always has a few really good excuses for his actions and the one who was wronged will want revenge without regard for what's fair.

And no matter what amount of torture you choose to inflict on every actor involved, some people will think it's undeserved because it's too much torture, and some will think it's undeserved because there's too little torture.

So... if there are only subjective opinions on the matter and if no option will really satisfy even a majority of people, how does one determine the amount of torture that is deserved in any given case?

[feelotraveller]

Suppose you're driving down a road, not violating any rules.
Suddenly, a little kid runs onto the road and gets splattered against your bumper.
After that, his mother looks up from her phone and sees what happened.

That hell is man-made not a god-made.

[TheSteppeWolf]

The thing is, I believe you can be forgiven by the divine for even "normal" murder, if you are truly sorry... and if it's accidental, even more so. It is up to them to determine, how much one had sinned.

And, it doesn't matter what religion you are.

[HmH]

Suppose you're driving down a road, not violating any rules.
Suddenly, a little kid runs onto the road and gets splattered against your bumper.
After that, his mother looks up from her phone and sees what happened.

That hell is man-made not a god-made.

It's not hell at all. It's all around us.

Add draconian laws that assume the driver in any fatal accident is guilty of murder by default, with no exceptions (unless he's well-connected in the police or the government; then the case is quietly closed 'for lack of evidence' before it goes to court), and you'll get a very ordinary situation in Russia.

And Russia is probably not even in the top-10 of countries with the most suicidally irresponsible pedestrians.

[MaxTheFox]

Our drivers aren't exactly sane either.

[Eschar]

Eh, I've never understood the view of hell as eternal torture of that form. I've always understood it to mean "eternity without the presence of God."  So basically life on Earth, but with none of the redeeming qualities.  Eternal despair, never having a moment of peace.  Always wanting more, and never getting enough.

I've also come to realize that it's likely we are not "sent to hell" as punishment, but that "separate from God" is our default condition, and we can only be "saved out of" that present state.  This is markedly different from philosophies that say humans start good or neutral (which are not Biblical views to be sure).

"Torment" is an inevitable result of being separate from God - it's not something that is "added."  It's what you get if people are left to their own devices.

I was also taught and believed this, courtesy of C.S. Lewis.

[HmH]

Eh, I've never understood the view of hell as eternal torture of that form. I've always understood it to mean "eternity without the presence of God."  So basically life on Earth, but with none of the redeeming qualities.  Eternal despair, never having a moment of peace.  Always wanting more, and never getting enough.

I've also come to realize that it's likely we are not "sent to hell" as punishment, but that "separate from God" is our default condition, and we can only be "saved out of" that present state.  This is markedly different from philosophies that say humans start good or neutral (which are not Biblical views to be sure).

"Torment" is an inevitable result of being separate from God - it's not something that is "added."  It's what you get if people are left to their own devices.

Actually, if being separate from God is our default condition, why would Hell differ from life on Earth at all? Is despair a part of human condition while peace is not?

On the other hand... an Earth-like afterlife might be a lot less appealing if you have to live there for eternity, no matter how shitty it gets.

Imagine living forever in a world that doesn't have enough resources per capita to get past the average living standards of the 18th century. Such a society would be trying to evolve, but there's simply not enough convertible energy for anyone but a tiny minority to employ mechanized labor.
So one person enjoying life only does that because thousands of others are slaving away for him. Which those thousands do not approve of.

[Rolan7]

Last night I was very afraid of dying for a little while, so I'd like to talk about how instinctual and unnatural irrational that fear is.

First off, the idea of me having continuity into some eternal state is completely absurd unless my brain is copied at some arbitrary time.  We all know painfully well that human memory isn't perfect.  What would my tortured spirit consist of - me today, me at 15, me from one of the final minutes of brain death, or me from any of the many dreams in which I am a completely different person?

Those last are particularly comforting, even the nightmares, as are the many times we live but don't remember.  Nothing is eternal - nothing.  Certainly not our biological processes.  Every suffering will come to an end.

The idea of consciousness being a shared thread between all beings has some internal consistency I guess, and its own horrors.  But there's no reason to picture... a very personal hell of suffocating, for eternity, in a dark place.  Such horrors only happen to the living. 

Edit:  I wasn't in mortal danger or anything, kinda the opposite.  Thinking about my future, and inevitable end.  A natural end, hopefully outlived by some positive impact on humanity.

[Egan_BW]

I'm the whole universe, but I can't access much information from this position.

[wierd]

Last night I was very afraid of dying for a little while, so I'd like to talk about how instinctual and unnatural irrational that fear is.

First off, the idea of me having continuity into some eternal state is completely absurd unless my brain is copied at some arbitrary time.  We all know painfully well that human memory isn't perfect.  What would my tortured spirit consist of - me today, me at 15, me from one of the final minutes of brain death, or me from any of the many dreams in which I am a completely different person?

Those last are particularly comforting, even the nightmares, as are the many times we live but don't remember.  Nothing is eternal - nothing.  Certainly not our biological processes.  Every suffering will come to an end.

The idea of consciousness being a shared thread between all beings has some internal consistency I guess, and its own horrors.  But there's no reason to picture... a very personal hell of suffocating, for eternity, in a dark place.  Such horrors only happen to the living. 

Edit:  I wasn't in mortal danger or anything, kinda the opposite.  Thinking about my future, and inevitable end.  A natural end, hopefully outlived by some positive impact on humanity.

You just need to almost die a few times.  Your fear of death will diminish.

(Me?  Oh, by all accounts I should be dead by now.  Almost drown 3x. Run over by car 4x. Drug by horse 1x. Kicked by horse 20x. Fall off roof/out of hayloft 1x. Hypothermia 4x. Indirect lightning strike 1x. .... You get the idea.)

[Rolan7]

That's a good point.  I'm definitely afraid of dying, like most people.  What I was afraid of yesterday was death.
(Hypothermia was probably the closest call, and was complicated by my amount of will to live.  Here I am, though.  It still seems peaceful...  Though I've heard that the last moments involve a certain illogical panic, so maybe not.)

Also I had the pleasure of caring for horses for a couple years, and they are just a bag of dicks.  Pardon my "equestrianism".