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Poll

What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 686646 times)

Teneb

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6390 on: September 26, 2018, 10:27:33 pm »

Our power was just struck down, Gaia Thank You For the Rain.

The rain on the roof...

Yeah, I think I deserve this.
Gaia isn't responsible for those we leave in the rain.
Bah, everyone knows that technology, and thus power distribution, is governed by spirits unaffiliated to any deity or divine power and who must be propitiated for them to maybe not fuck you over.

II've talked to a lot of people including new age crystal-healing types and though they may sound heavier on the mysticism, I've actually seen the most of... let's call it "superstition", on computer techs. IT work is a combination of work-arounds, wishful thinking and "have you turned it off and on again?".
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MrRoboto75

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6391 on: September 26, 2018, 10:35:36 pm »

Some economics is powered by animal spirits...
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Teneb

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6392 on: September 26, 2018, 10:43:25 pm »

Some economics is powered by animal spirits...
Economics is something else entirely and worthy of a larger theological discussion that I am too tired to engage in.
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smjjames

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6393 on: September 26, 2018, 10:51:34 pm »

The theology of what in economics? or vice versa. Though it really just sounds like he was making a joke on something about economics, either the stock market or maybe Ayn Rand stuff or just economic theories that involve lots of wishful thinking in general.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6394 on: September 26, 2018, 10:56:43 pm »

If WH40K has taught me anything, it's that IT involves lots on incense burning and arcane incantations.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6395 on: September 26, 2018, 11:05:53 pm »

The theology of what in economics? or vice versa. Though it really just sounds like he was making a joke on something about economics, either the stock market or maybe Ayn Rand stuff or just economic theories that involve lots of wishful thinking in general.

Has to do with Keynesian Economic Theory, as animal spirits being the vague guts driving human behavior or something.
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ggamer

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6396 on: September 27, 2018, 10:05:01 am »

on the poll: are ya'll talking about calvinism? Because my dad is probably the most theologically well read person i've ever met and even he couldn't explain predestination, and he had an hour to do it.

It has something to do with how predestination (the idea that God has already decided who goes to heaven) is a seperate idea than God knowing everyone who's going to hell? I think.

Teneb

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6397 on: September 27, 2018, 10:23:26 am »

I don't think it's about Calvinism specifically, but about if Free Will is a thing or not, and if religious people belive in it more or less than atheists.

The economy thing was a joke based on how Stock Exchange economists might as well be priests trying to appease the God of Shares to keep numbers going up.
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Telgin

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6398 on: September 27, 2018, 12:25:46 pm »

I can't speak for Calvinism specifically, but the way I always looked at it was that if God knew everything, and specifically the future, then surely he knew who was going to Heaven or Hell in the end, which meant I ultimately had no say in the matter because the results were known since the beginning of time.  I couldn't make a decision that would cause my fate to deviate from what God already knew would be the case.

I don't know if this is what Calvinists believe, but one way I've seen it handwaved is that while God knows what you'll do in the end, it's not an excuse to be a terrible person because you don't know what the end result will be, but if you're a terrible person you're definitely going to Hell.  Better to try to be good and hope you were one of the chosen before time began who makes it, whatever circumstances may conspire to make that be the case or not.

These days I look at it in a different light, but with the same fundamental message.  I believe in a deterministic universe (and to be sure this is almost religion since all of our evidence points to the contrary..), which means that I don't actually make decisions at all.  When I decide to do something, it's for a reason.  I'm writing this post because I want to share my opinion and it's relevant.  I just ate something because I was hungry.  I just committed some code to Git because it's my job.  You can chase these "becauses" all the way back to the beginning of time and to whatever resolution you choose, and if you set them up in the same fashion and let them unfold then they should come out to the same conclusion, right?  And all of my future actions are going to be based on my current situation and previous experiences, so what choice do I really have?

Of course, you can try to inject quantum mechanics and uncertainty into the mix, but I feel like that would at best add randomness, and randomness isn't really making decisions either, is it?

The only way around this that I see, which some religious people probably do ascribe to, is that there really is some supernatural element that imparts free will through quantum fluctuations that appear to be random.  But... well, if you believe that God knows everything and the future then we end up back at square one of my post.
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Persus13

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6399 on: September 27, 2018, 02:21:35 pm »

I wish there was an option in that poll for a third position, as I'm not too concerned about the free will debate.

I don't know what my future looks like, so I have no idea if my choices are set or not. And while I am religious, that doesn't give me special knowledge of the future that empowers me to to make a decision on that.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6400 on: September 27, 2018, 06:58:23 pm »

Good old free will. Still don't know what the term is supposed to actually refer to. Because "free" isn't really a point anywhere on the axis between deterministic and random, but free will is usually debated in terms of those things.
So far as I'm concerned, you can be free even if deterministic, unfree even if random, unfree if deterministic, free if random. Separate concepts, right? And if you had a soul subtly manipulating your thoughts through seemingly random quantum effects, wouldn't this make you not free? Your own natural thoughts would be controlled by something else, not physically or biologically a part of yourself.
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Rowanas

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6401 on: September 28, 2018, 10:08:52 am »

Oh!  I had a discussion about predestination and Calvinism vs Armenianism only yesterday, after I realised that a church on my route was open.  apparently Anglo-catholic is a real denomination and I don't know exactly what it means.

Egan, if you believe in a soul, then the soul is an element of you and is an actor in your expression of free will, rather than an external manipulator of it.
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Descan

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6402 on: September 28, 2018, 11:13:25 pm »

I would expect an Anglo-Catholic would be an Anglican-style church in communion with Rome rather than with the Anglican hierarchy.
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TD1

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6403 on: September 29, 2018, 11:50:42 am »

Which is basically just Catholic.
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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6404 on: September 29, 2018, 02:12:25 pm »

Which is basically just Anglican
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