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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 664102 times)

McTraveller

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6105 on: March 07, 2017, 05:56:52 pm »

For those saying "you don't need faith to believe there is no god" - I think you have a different definition of faith than I.  Do you really believe the target of your belief system makes it faith or just merely belief?  That is - if the target of a belief system is not supernatural it's not faith?

This is an honest question -  definitions are important and I'm just trying to understand this part of the discussion.

EDIT:
:
:
The path to virtue lies in humility, not narcissism...
All generally interesting stuff, until this last sentence: from where does this 'virtue' originate - or does it even matter? I got confused a bit here because you started (I think?) by saying it is all arbitrary, but then seem to make this value statement, which implies a non-arbitrariness.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 06:04:00 pm by McTraveller »
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TD1

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6106 on: March 07, 2017, 06:02:47 pm »

Faith is predicated upon, not necessarily it being supernatural, but on there being no/so little it might as well be no evidence for it.
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Frumple

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6107 on: March 07, 2017, 06:12:43 pm »

Or at least that the evidence hasn't been gathered yet. Key difference vis a vis religious faith vs the more mundane stuff is in that point. The former can't have evidence (particularly of the sort that can't be explained otherwise) of a communicable sort gathered for it, the latter can. Faith in a bridge staying up is tested by crossing it, usually. Can't really test most religious faith claims without dying, and that causes a wee titch of trouble reporting the results of the test, heh. Target that ain't supernatural can be checked, one that is can't be (or it wouldn't actually be supernatural), more or less. Still faith in a sense either way, but rather different sorts.

Anyway, thing is lack of belief isn't an affirmative belief in and of itself, however much certain brands of bible thumpers say otherwise. You don't need anything to not believe in a god, you just don't believe. No faith involved one way or the other 'cause there's nothing involved to begin with.
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McTraveller

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6108 on: March 07, 2017, 06:42:15 pm »

Anyway, thing is lack of belief isn't an affirmative belief in and of itself, however much certain brands of bible thumpers say otherwise. You don't need anything to not believe in a god, you just don't believe. No faith involved one way or the other 'cause there's nothing involved to begin with.
Maybe on a fundamental level, I agree - but most people don't just "not believe" - they "believe that their belief is the correct one" - which takes some... for lack of a better word, faith?  I think that is the point the video is making.

There is also the aspect of - if you were not in a culture that espouses the idea of atheism, what would you believe?  How much of the "it takes no effort to not believe X" is actually a product of environment?

Put another way - did the first human cultures have a theistic belief or not? If so - did that take more or less "effort" than the alternative?
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redwallzyl

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6109 on: March 07, 2017, 06:50:16 pm »

Anyway, thing is lack of belief isn't an affirmative belief in and of itself, however much certain brands of bible thumpers say otherwise. You don't need anything to not believe in a god, you just don't believe. No faith involved one way or the other 'cause there's nothing involved to begin with.
Maybe on a fundamental level, I agree - but most people don't just "not believe" - they "believe that their belief is the correct one" - which takes some... for lack of a better word, faith?  I think that is the point the video is making.

There is also the aspect of - if you were not in a culture that espouses the idea of atheism, what would you believe?  How much of the "it takes no effort to not believe X" is actually a product of environment?

Put another way - did the first human cultures have a theistic belief or not? If so - did that take more or less "effort" than the alternative?
the first human cultures had what is described as shamanism. later beliefes typicly revolve around ancestors which likely arose as a result of sedentary lifestyles where they served as a justification for why the land was yours. see Jericho specificly and more generally burial mounds.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6110 on: March 07, 2017, 07:16:12 pm »

As I said somewhere before in this thread, anthropologists typically accept the earliest form of religious belief to be animism. That is, the belief that everything has an "animus", a spirit beyond its physical form. I think there's a pretty clear association between animism and symbolism - religious belief is founded when a symbolic association is divorced from the physical thing it was associated with.

But animism is not theism per se, the earliest form of what we recognize as theism are in the form of "human gods". You see later forms of this with Gilgamesh or the Hellenistic pantheon. The gods aren't transcendent beings, they act and mostly look like immensely powerful immortal humans. Zeus is a horndog. Poseidon fucks up people who disrespect him. Aphrodite puts Playboy models to shame. All very human impulses and desires.

And, for the record, this starts to turn into the transcendent kind of god when these polytheistic deities are all gradually subsumed: first in henotheism as one god takes precedence above the rest, and then eventually in monotheism as one god absorbs the qualities of all the rest. But at that point all of your "human but more" attributes get subsumed into a single idea and it isn't long before that gets smoothed out by the idea of omnipotence and omniscience.

As for the other thing, no, you don't need faith to be an atheist. The definition of faith should not be "accepting your own beliefs" because that's completely non-determinate. Everybody accepts their own beliefs about everything. It's a useless word at that point, much along the lines of people who say shit like "I think everything is God" (pantheists exempted). Faith, in the way it is typically used by anybody outside of trying to win an argument, and by both theists and non-theists, is "belief in something without or in spite of evidence". Faith should also not be conflated with trust, because an idea of trust is based upon the past experience or character of what/who is being trusted.

It is clear that atheists don't have to do this. Pretty much everybody reasonable agrees there's no scientific evidence of the supernatural, even if they think there is a supernatural. "Thou shall not put thy god to the test" and such. This is, in fairness, not to say that someone cannot believe atheism is true on a faith-basis, they just don't have to. An ardent member of the Communist Party of China might have faith that the official doctrines of atheism espoused by the party must be true. However, for atheism as it is generally discussed in English, we're virtually always taking about western skeptics or people who accept similar ideas. Skepticism is the polar opposite of faith, a conscious withholding of belief until sufficient evidence is provided, and so in general it is correct to say that atheists don't have faith.
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Frumple

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6111 on: March 07, 2017, 07:52:44 pm »

Eh... issue with that trust bit is that many of the faithful do, in fact, have previous experiences they ascribe to thingjiggers related to their religion or claim to/believe they know the character of various divine whatsits on a personal level, but still very much call (as would most) their beliefs vis a vis metaphysics to be based largely on faith more than trust. At the least they'd be intertwining faith and trust very, very closely by that sort of conceptualization.

Not really sure how I'd deal with that at th'mo, to be honest, other than perhaps just consider it another case of the vagrancies of religious language. Maybe folks trust their experiences weren't hallucinations? Or have faith in that and trust in what they take to be the consequences. Probably would need to think on it more. Probably not going to :V

Though yeah, that definition of faith is the more or less standard one, if it needed any more support. Tend to further divide it based on the nature of the evidence in question (whether evidence can be gathered and communicated or not, basically, which makes the different between nonreligious and religious faith), m'self, but eh.
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McTraveller

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6112 on: March 07, 2017, 08:17:23 pm »

@MetalSlimeHunt:
Interesting - because I think this depends on context? I mean, people say "I have no faith in the government" which is markedly not in a religious context. So are we agreeing that is a different kind of 'faith'? I can do that.  (And I got sniped by @Frumple who said basically the same thing?)

But I still think it's splitting hairs to talk about how 'skepticism' is not 'faith'. I would say that skepticism is faith - it's faith in one's ability to discern the point at which 'sufficient evidence' is observed.  Or more abstractly, even, faith in something like the idea that 'evidence trumps everything.' Now I agree that perhaps this isn't really how the word is used most of the time - but we're being philosophical here, right?

That said - how does any of this help people live together without doing things to damage each other?  I mean, if that's even a goal, I guess.
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TD1

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6113 on: March 07, 2017, 08:19:30 pm »

I think it should be noted that such experience obviously isn't empirical (not to mention can be induced: See Persinger's Helmet) and so to claim it as a foundation for trust is, essentially, meaningless. One may as well trust that Mars has life because a Martian spoke to you in a dream.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6114 on: March 07, 2017, 08:30:52 pm »

Interesting - because I think this depends on context? I mean, people say "I have no faith in the government" which is markedly not in a religious context. So are we agreeing that is a different kind of 'faith'? I can do that.  (And I got sniped by @Frumple who said basically the same thing?)
That's just an established saying, it doesn't change the primary definition of the word. English, what a language.
Quote
But I still think it's splitting hairs to talk about how 'skepticism' is not 'faith'. I would say that skepticism is faith - it's faith in one's ability to discern the point at which 'sufficient evidence' is observed.  Or more abstractly, even, faith in something like the idea that 'evidence trumps everything.' Now I agree that perhaps this isn't really how the word is used most of the time - but we're being philosophical here, right?
See, that's why you shouldn't accept that viewpoint on faith. You're well on your way to "evolution is a religion" with this chain of thought, which I'm sure we can agree is obviously not true.

Skepticism isn't faith in one's ability to discern sufficient evidence for two reasons: A. A large part of skeptical and critical thought is identifying cognitive biases and logical fallacies, and only a seriously narcissistic person would apply that to others without applying it to their own thoughts. Once you have chosen skepticism it is a short road to "must find clear evidence-based discernment of human reason from human insanity". B. This argument is at least partially solipsistic and thus useless because it makes literally everything faith again. Human beings are functionally capable of some degree of reason, as demonstrated by countless examples of everything practical we do. It doesn't matter if the universe is a simulation or god created us yesterday with fake memories or whatever, the standard of evidence ends at "arbitrarily high" not "100%".
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 08:33:03 pm by MetalSlimeHunt »
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McTraveller

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6115 on: March 07, 2017, 09:53:08 pm »

That's just an established saying, it doesn't change the primary definition of the word. English, what a language.
The first-listed definition in many (most?) English dictionaries for 'faith' is just "complete trust or confidence in someone or something."  So instead of saying "the skeptic has faith in the system of evidence-based validation of theory" how about "the skeptic has trust in the system of evidence-based validation of theory". Does that really change anything?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6116 on: March 07, 2017, 09:58:47 pm »

And one of the first definitions for "confirmation" is a Catholic religious rite. We're obligated to use words in their proper context for communication. I don't think your average person would say faith in the religious sense and trust are the same thing. Using faith as a synonym for trust is sometimes done but we're discussing religious concepts here.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 10:25:17 pm by MetalSlimeHunt »
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Rolan7

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6117 on: March 07, 2017, 10:13:58 pm »

When you have to examine faith, you're told to have more faith because God/gods/existence/theCult work in mysterious ways.  You are encouraged to "have more faith" and thus overcome the urge to question.

Trust is simply earned, over long periods of time.
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McTraveller

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6118 on: March 08, 2017, 07:15:51 am »

When you have to examine faith, you're told to have more faith because God/gods/existence/theCult work in mysterious ways.  You are encouraged to "have more faith" and thus overcome the urge to question.

Trust is simply earned, over long periods of time.
I feel sad for folks that are subject to the "have more faith and don't question" mantra.  I'm realizing that I am fortunate that I am in a community that both has strong faith and a strong sense of "it's ok to question - keep digging more!  Find out why you believe what you do, don't accept it at face value or just because we say it."

From my perspective, I don't think that faith and 'earned trust' are necessarily exclusive.
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TD1

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6119 on: May 17, 2017, 03:52:40 pm »

I don't know how genuine this is, but it still made me laugh. And feel sorry for the girl.
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