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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Loud Whispers]

Oh no, youtube comments!
Holy hell christians have no idea what persecution is nowadays.
Every goddamn religion with any presence in western society is going to be yelled at on the internet. Christians suddenly aren't getting special treatment and now it's persecution.

Christians are about to be extinct in their original lands because they've just been persecuted into oblivion via religious cleansing

But yeah fuck em right they have no idea what persecution is lel, since when have they ever been persecuted

[Rolan7]

I dunno what counts as "original lands"...  The former Roman Empire?  Faith is down in Northwestern Europe, and yeah Islamic people are moving it at a trouble rate, but there's not really religious cleansing going on.  Not since the Catholic church got weak.

I guess you mean the Middle East, IE the original lands for *every* Abrahamic religion...  Which have taken turns persecuting each other and outright warring for as long as they've existed.

[andrea]

Oh no, youtube comments!
Holy hell christians have no idea what persecution is nowadays.
Every goddamn religion with any presence in western society is going to be yelled at on the internet. Christians suddenly aren't getting special treatment and now it's persecution.

Christians are about to be extinct in their original lands because they've just been persecuted into oblivion via religious cleansing

But yeah fuck em right they have no idea what persecution is lel, since when have they ever been persecuted

well, yes. But 2 posts down from what you quoted, the same user clarified that he meant in the USA and acknowledged that in other parts of the worlds christians are actually persecuted. Mostly, as you say, in the middle east region.
While the wording was less complete than it should have, considering the following conversation I think Putnam should deserve a bit more credit than that,

[Loud Whispers]

I dunno what counts as "original lands"...  The former Roman Empire?  Faith is down in Northwestern Europe, and yeah Islamic people are moving it at a trouble rate, but there's not really religious cleansing going on.  Not since the Catholic church got weak.

I meant it as its place of origin, cos if we're going by original lands then that's very sketchy given how much time it had to blob over all of Eurasia and then how much it declined in the East due to surprise jihads and disapproving Ming inquisition (nobody expects the Ming inquisition) sekrit police.

I guess you mean the Middle East

No, that's too large; if we're going by that then Eurasia is everyone's land of origin. It's not wrong, but it's a rather worthless statement.

IE the original lands for *every* Abrahamic religion...  Which have taken turns persecuting each other and outright warring for as long as they've existed.

Rolan why do you do this every time

Do you think Mecca and Jerusalem are one and the same? That Levant and south Arabia and Persia are one and the same? Don't be silly, I know you don't know this. Seems rather peculiar though because every time you try to conflate this as all inevitable, unavoidable and everyone's doing it so let's not take notice of Christians being made extinct in their original lands via religious cleansing e.t.c.

*!!!
I just realized you thought I was talking about Islamicization of Western Europe. Now I'm sad
No that's not religious cleansing, you're right, I don't particularly care about that as faith is already down and you can't kill something already dead, and that's all with relatively peaceful demographic change brought about by invitation. Christians have been cleansed in the ME by old fashioned killing and no one important's been willing to talk about it for fear of promoting a clash of civilizations narrative, hence why we only talk of Kurds and Yazidis, talks that have "only" provoked riots between Kurds and Turks and Yazidis in the West. These people who survived Sassanids, the Caliphates, the Mongols - will become extinct in our lifetime because they were murdered and few will even notice that they ever existed as more than artifacts

well, yes. But 2 posts down from what you quoted, the same user clarified that he meant in the USA and acknowledged that in other parts of the worlds christians are actually persecuted. Mostly, as you say, in the middle east region.
While the wording was less complete than it should have, considering the following conversation I think Putnam should deserve a bit more credit than that,

Not even mostly in the ME region, just so totally in the ME that they'll be extinct. I find it unbelievable that the general reaction is "whatever"

[TD1]

You all realise how big the Middle East is, right? To say it's happening there, and not narrowing it down to say Turkey (big enough by itself) or some other nation should tell you that you ought to pay attention.

[Frumple]

And that's... all entirely irrelevant to the point that was being made during that conversation that happened a week ago. For the extreme majority of the world's christian population, the closest they've come to persecution in several generations was at the hands of other christians, and it's not something that's happened for most in living memory. Most living christians, especially most US christians, wouldn't know genuine religious persecution if it slapped them in a face with a trout. Nor would have their grandparents.

The context of the conversation wasn't minority populations outside western countries, nor was it about populations centuries displaced, dead, and/or marginalized. Those were specifically noted, and noted as not being what was discussed.

Not sure why someone would consider the reaction of "whatever" to be unbelievable, though. That happens to, what, dozens of various ethnic/religious groups a year? More? Most people haven't heard of them or don't care much if they had -- it happens to many, and they've generally got no reason to consider a particular one special. Maybe it's disappointing or unfortunate, but it's not particularly unusual, and you usually can't really blame folks for it. They've got stuff to worry about closer to home, of larger overall impact, or any number of other things.

[Loud Whispers]

You all realise how big the Middle East is, right? To say it's happening there, and not narrowing it down to say Turkey (big enough by itself) or some other nation should tell you that you ought to pay attention.

From Med to Tigris. I wouldn't say Middle East as their existence in countries like Iran or Saudi Arabia is survivable and tolerable by necessity; and it unnecessarily casts shade upon countries like Jordan and Turkey that are still ok-ish on that front. Especially credit to Jordan and Turkey who are helping so many refugees fleeing this.
I'm also just saying for example that Saudi suppression is considerably preferable to elimination on any day of the week. Destruction of all the churches and arresting of practicing members is pretty shit, but it's not elimination. I'm particularly hurt because consider for example that the Christians in Saudi Arabia are Roman Catholic migrant workers who although treated horrendously, have home countries and even the worst case scenario of catastrophic tragedy, Roman Catholics would still exist outside Arabia. Losing the oldest Christian communities in the world is a permanent destruction :/

Not sure why someone would consider the reaction of "whatever" to be unbelievable, though. That happens to, what, dozens of various ethnic/religious groups a year? More? Most people haven't heard of them or don't care much if they had -- it happens to many, and they've generally got no reason to consider a particular one special. Maybe it's disappointing or unfortunate, but it's not particularly unusual, and you usually can't really blame folks for it. They've got stuff to worry about closer to home, of larger overall impact, or any number of other things.

I am a vehemently inimical to moral apathy. Have we really had dozens of ethnic and religious groups exterminated a year?

Also hah, you can't blame people for it. Yes you can.

[Rolepgeek]

Not sure why someone would consider the reaction of "whatever" to be unbelievable, though. That happens to, what, dozens of various ethnic/religious groups a year? More? Most people haven't heard of them or don't care much if they had -- it happens to many, and they've generally got no reason to consider a particular one special. Maybe it's disappointing or unfortunate, but it's not particularly unusual, and you usually can't really blame folks for it. They've got stuff to worry about closer to home, of larger overall impact, or any number of other things.

I am a vehemently inimical to moral apathy. Have we really had dozens of ethnic and religious groups exterminated a year?

Also hah, you can't blame people for it. Yes you can.

Exterminated from a particular region of the world? Maybe. If you count sub-sub-religions, or ethnic groups becoming indistinct from the general population, almost certainly. If you mean persecution and the like happening to people, as I believe Frumple probably did, then it certainly also happens to a lot of people every year. Cus' Christianity isn't going to be exterminated any time soon. Not unless te=he Rapture happens or something.

[TD1]

I doubt if the extermination of Christianity is the problem. I fail to see how mere persecution is so much better and okay. Granted, it happens to a lot of religions in a lot of countries. Saying that doesn't mean this example of it is just....what? Every day? Tolerable? That would lead to an awful lot of complacency.

[Frumple]

Exterminated from a particular region of the world? Maybe. If you count sub-sub-religions, or ethnic groups becoming indistinct from the general population, almost certainly. If you mean persecution and the like happening to people, as I believe Frumple probably did, then it certainly also happens to a lot of people every year.

Either, really. There's only so much difference from the point of cultural death or extinction. Plenty get bred out of existence, some displaced, others get forgotten, some get just plain slaughtered. It's been something that's been happening yearly for decades, at a minimum. It's unfortunate, but so's a lot of stuff, much of it effecting a significantly larger amount of people.

And TD1, I'm pretty sure no one's saying anything along those lines. Certainly the only thing I've noted in regards to what you're speaking of is that not paying much attention to little ethnic groups dying off for whatever reason is not unusual, nor is it difficult to understand. Wouldn't even call it particularly inexcusable, myself. There's only so many resources that can be expended, and people tend to prioritize closer to home before they start expending outwards. S'not apathy or some shit, it's just prioritization.

[Orange Wizard]

You all realise how big the Middle East is, right? To say it's happening there, and not narrowing it down to say Turkey (big enough by itself) or some other nation should tell you that you ought to pay attention.

Turkey is officially secular. Catholicism and Protestantism are not recognised by the state as protected/permitted religions (Eastern churches are recognised, however). Overwhelmingly Muslim (97%).

Syria and Iraq are officially secular, but the governments do not actively support this. Terrorism against minorities including Christians is rampant. Muslim education is mandated in schools. Overwhelmingly Muslim (~97%).

Iran is an Islamic republic. Conversion from Islam to another religion is a crime under the state's religious laws (although punishment is technically forbidden by the constitution). Proselytising Christianity is punishable, in some cases by death. Mandated Muslim education. Overwhelmingly Muslim (98%).

Kuwait is officially secular. Minorities including Christians are protected by law but non-Muslim religious gatherings are illegal and punishable. Mandated Muslim education. Overwhelmingly Muslim (~99%).

Saudi Arabia is an Islamic kingdom. Apostasy and blasphemy are punishable by death. Mandated Muslim education. Overwhelmingly Muslim (~99%, most minorities are undocumented immigrants).

Egypt is an Islamic republic. Freedom of religion is constitutionally allowed but conversion from Islam to another religion is a crime. Proselytising is a crime. Non-Muslim religious gatherings are illegal. Non-Muslim religious texts and art are frequently censored. Mandated Muslim education. Overwhelmingly Muslim (91%), Copts are a significant minority.

Israel is a Jewish republic. Freedom of religion is constitutionally allowed. Protection of minorities including Christians is frequently ignored. Primarily Jewish (75%), with Islam a significant minority.

Jordan is an Islamic kingdom. Conversion from Islam is a crime. Proselytising is a crime. Mandated Muslim education. Overwhelmingly Muslim (92%).

Lebanon is the only place I found with actual religious freedom in the Middle-east. It is primarily Muslim (54%) and Christian (40%). Sectarian violence occurs nonetheless.

[Angle]

Is there a proper Atheism and Philosophy discussion thread, or does this double as that too?

[TD1]

It's a religion thread full of atheists. I think it qualifies

[Loud Whispers]

We all tip fedoras ITT

[TempAcc]

ITT bashing religion is mandatory (bonus points if american protestant christianity). Talking about it is optional, though :v