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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 681141 times)

Telgin

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4830 on: January 19, 2016, 07:47:07 pm »

1 Timothy 2:12 is the only place I know of that directly says that women shouldn't teach in church, but there may be others.  Yet, Galations 3:28 says that there's no difference between men and women before God.  So... which is more important, and why?

One might argue that the more specific rule is more important, but I think it's generally healthier to read anything that wasn't said directly by Jesus with a grain of proverbial salt and not take bans like that seriously.

If there's anything I learned from a Catholic friend who trained to be a priest, it's that you really have to read most of the books of the New Testament with their target audience in mind.  Most of them were written to specific churches in specific places that already had cultures and expectations that had to be worked with.

I don't buy into the Bible as divine inspiration anyway, but I think even if you do it's a healthy mindset.  In this case, that was just the writings of someone who didn't like the idea of women teaching in church and not something God said or directed.
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origamiscienceguy

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4831 on: January 19, 2016, 08:02:48 pm »

Men and women are created equally, but with different roles. Much like the trinity. They are all equal, but have different roles.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4832 on: January 19, 2016, 08:06:50 pm »

If you can use an excuse to justify not publicly executing people, you can use it to have special bum fun.
What excuse?
This is more like saying Muslims can brush off the Quran if they're so inclined

wierd

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4833 on: January 19, 2016, 08:09:46 pm »

IIRC, the typical rhetorical justification for this is that woman was created from man, and man came first-- so, by virtue of this-- somehow-- women need to come second to men, but are otherwise equal and to be respected.

The true equal treatment of women, in respect to the biblical rhetoric and doctrines, is a case of "She not respect my authority, by talking to me like my equal! That bad! Jew man STONE!"

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Graknorke

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4834 on: January 19, 2016, 08:13:15 pm »

If you can use an excuse to justify not publicly executing people, you can use it to have special bum fun.
What excuse?
This is more like saying Muslims can brush off the Quran if they're so inclined
That the Hadiths aren't as necessary to follow as the Quran. It's how the Muslims I know who care about that kind of thing rationalise that they're not getting together to lynch gays and adulterers and so on.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4835 on: January 19, 2016, 08:19:01 pm »

IIRC, don't Sunni Muslims hold to both Quran and Hadiths, but Shia Muslims hold only to the Quran? Obviously it's a bit more complicated than that but I think that's roughly the case.

...

1 Timothy 2:12 is the only place I know of that directly says that women shouldn't teach in church
Timothy, Corinthians, and a few others that I can't recall off-hand. There's probably an article in the Westminster Confession on it as well.
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Bohandas

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4836 on: January 19, 2016, 08:34:53 pm »

Had a re-look, and it's one of those things that's in the Hadiths but not in the Quran itself. AKA you can kind of brush it off if you're so inclined.
What
That's like saying Christians can brush off what Jesus says if they're so inclined

IIRC The hadiths are not held to be divinely inspired
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4837 on: January 19, 2016, 09:49:21 pm »

That the Hadiths aren't as necessary to follow as the Quran. It's how the Muslims I know who care about that kind of thing rationalise that they're not getting together to lynch gays and adulterers and so on.
IIRC The hadiths are not held to be divinely inspired
wat who is telling you people these things

IIRC, don't Sunni Muslims hold to both Quran and Hadiths, but Shia Muslims hold only to the Quran? Obviously it's a bit more complicated than that but I think that's roughly the case.
No, both Sunni and Shia hold onto both Quran and Hadiths and... Well, I think there's some confusion on what the Hadith are. They are a collection of the things Muhammed said when he was alive in response to things and all that, so it's like a compendium of "what would Jesus do" with answers helpfully attached. The Sunni hold the hadith to be legit (with some hadiths more legit than others) and have six major hadith, whilst the Shia have four different ones (and by virtue of their skepticism of Sunni sources, also view their own with more skepticism. The hadith are fundamental to the religion of Islam and form much of the basis of Sharia Law, I'm a bit thrown aback by this lack of cultural enrichment, how have you lived your lives with so few encounters with Islam is beyond me, we must rev up Muslim immigration to the USA gorillion fold at this rate O_O

For the Sunni following the Hadith as part of the Sunnah is especially important - the whole notion of being a Sunni is being a person of tradition, of living your life based on what Muhammed did/said/forbid and in turn based off of the religious canon, which in turn has primacy.
For the Shia they have different Hadith and they also believe that Muhammed's divine guidance was passed down to Ali and his successors, the twelve Imams. The Shiites also believe in their ayatollahs (high ranking priests well versed in Islamic / theological studies) being in a way qualified by God to interpret and reinterpret the Canon similar to say, the Papacy of the Roman Catholics reinterpreting the Christian Canon to respond to new problems that arise over long periods of time, whilst Sunni are much more traditional and keeping to the primacy of the Canon; follow the example of the Hadith and Quran as is said, even more than a Christian fundamentalist would follow the examples in the Bible by the text

Rolepgeek

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4838 on: January 19, 2016, 10:01:00 pm »

I get the feeling, and I might be wrong, but I get the feeling that a large part of your debate strategy consists of basically No True Muslim-ing in the opposite direction from what you might expect. "No the actual religion is this official stuff that inevitably leads to Very Bad Thing, not that silly 'reasonable' stuff that people who just claim to be part of the religion say they believe".

With a bit of shitposting, strawman parody (I don't think anyone has claimed Sharia law to be cultural enrichment on this thread, at any rate), a fair amount of condescension, and guilt-by-association thrown in. (That last one's okay though basically everybody does it and it's fairly inevitable)
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Rolan7

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4839 on: January 19, 2016, 10:14:41 pm »

There's not exactly a "true" religion, just how people choose to interpret it.  Most Muslims (worldwide, not in America probably) believe in instituting shariah law.  Including in nations they're immigrating into.

To ignore that is to do a disservice to the Muslims who are pushing for progressive values and cooperation.  And extremely condescending.  And you're guilty by association.
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4840 on: January 19, 2016, 11:02:18 pm »

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Bohandas

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4841 on: January 20, 2016, 01:00:04 am »

Had a re-look, and it's one of those things that's in the Hadiths but not in the Quran itself. AKA you can kind of brush it off if you're so inclined.
What
That's like saying Christians can brush off what Jesus says if they're so inclined

More like blowing off the Books of the Maccabees or the Book of the Wisdom of Solomon.

EDIT:
see below
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 01:22:02 am by Bohandas »
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Bohandas

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4842 on: January 20, 2016, 01:11:22 am »

IIRC, don't Sunni Muslims hold to both Quran and Hadiths, but Shia Muslims hold only to the Quran? Obviously it's a bit more complicated than that but I think that's roughly the case.
No, both Sunni and Shia hold onto both Quran and Hadiths and... Well, I think there's some confusion on what the Hadith are. They are a collection of the things Muhammed said when he was alive in response to things and all that, so it's like a compendium of "what would Jesus do" with answers helpfully attached. The Sunni hold the hadith to be legit (with some hadiths more legit than others) and have six major hadith, whilst the Shia have four different ones (and by virtue of their skepticism of Sunni sources, also view their own with more skepticism. The hadith are fundamental to the religion of Islam and form much of the basis of Sharia Law,

Papal Encyclicals are fundamental to Catholic Christianity and form the basis of canon law but they're not themselves canon in the sense of being part of the faith's official holy book. The Talmud is central to the Jewish faith and form the basis of Rabbinic law, but it's not part of the Tanakh.

Plus, from your description, the Hadiths sound much closer to the Book of the Wisdom of Solomon, or possibly the Book of the Acts of the Apostles, than any of he Gospels.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 01:18:16 am by Bohandas »
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4843 on: January 20, 2016, 01:19:35 am »

tbf Wisdom of Solomon is apocryphal in protestant churches so it's not really a good comparison
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Bohandas

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Everyone's a Coptic in Their Own Way
« Reply #4844 on: January 20, 2016, 01:39:52 am »

tbf Wisdom of Solomon is apocryphal in protestant churches so it's not really a good comparison

According to my research the Shi'a consider the main Sunni hadiths to be apocryphal and vice versa. So the comparison stands.
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