Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Bohandas]

Went by the post office yesterday, it was sporting a giant Christmas tree and a santa sleigh.  The US Post Office.
I mean, it's not the Ten Commandments, but this still makes me *uncomfortable* because I am *scared* of what it represents.

I think that Santa and Christmas trees are more a symbol of capitalism than christianity (not that capitalism is a good thing either; It's preferable to Maoism or Stalinism, but it's still very bad).

It's not like they had a nativity scene or whatever.

[origamiscienceguy]

Rolan, I hope this isn't a personal question, but why do you care about public symbols of Christianity?

[redwallzyl]

Went by the post office yesterday, it was sporting a giant Christmas tree and a santa sleigh.  The US Post Office.
I mean, it's not the Ten Commandments, but this still makes me *uncomfortable* because I am *scared* of what it represents.

I think that Santa and Christmas trees are more a symbol of capitalism than christianity (not that capitalism is a good thing either; It's preferable to Maoism or Stalinism, but it's still very bad).

It's not like they had a nativity scene or whatever.

better watch out or saint nick is gonna punch all you naughty heretics in the face! and don't think he wont hes done it before! before long the Santa death squads will force you to give Christmas cheer or face death by beating with coal filled stockings to the tune of jingle bells! noting can stop his rise to power! mwahahaha!!!

[Icefire2314]

Rick Santorum, Senator Ted Cruz, Dr Ben Carson, and Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal have agreed to support a constitutional amendment voiding gay marriages, including existing ones.

Why am I posting this here?  Because of the group which wrote the pledge in the first place:
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/08/24/anti-gay-marriage-group-nom-funded-by-catholic-donors-it-fought-to-keep-secret/

Just...  When I say I'm *afraid of Christianity*, I'm not joking okay?  And it's not an unreasonable phobia.  As a gay atheist I have:
* Been called a noncitizen by the President of the United States (Bush Jr)
* Have to recite a pledge of allegiance which (thanks to relatively recent neocons) puts the country underneath a single God
* Have to use currency which does the same
* Am even less likely to be elected to office than a muslim
* Reached the age of 28 before my right to marry was recognized by the federal government
* Said right has been and is, as above, constantly attacked by the "moral majority".  Real candidates for president are being applauded for promising to strip my basic right to marriage.
* ...  It's actually illegal for gay people to have sex in 17 states, marriage or not:

Fourteen states' statutes purport to ban all forms of sodomy, some including oral intercourse, regardless of the participants' genders: Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Utah. Four states specifically target their statutes at same-sex relations only: Oklahoma, Kansas[16][17] Kentucky, and Texas.

Do you see that?  Four states, even now, *only* ban the acts between same sex couples.
This is the law of the country I live in.  I *am* oppressed, by Christians, every day.  I don't "hate Christians" I want BASIC CIVIL LIBERTIES.  I want them to let me live my life in peace!  And I'm sure most Christians here are happy to let me do that, but please stop crying "persecution" or "hate" when people want to question the Bible, or suggest that American Christianity is dangerous.  Being disagreed with is not persecution.

Went by the post office yesterday, it was sporting a giant Christmas tree and a santa sleigh.  The US Post Office.
I mean, it's not the Ten Commandments, but this still makes me *uncomfortable* because I am *scared* of what it represents.

Sorta as an aside, something I'm conflicted about...  My loud and proud atheist brother said he doesn't care about Christmas decorations, as long as there's no manger scene.  Basically arguing that Christmas is practically secular nowadays.  This made me conflicted.  On the one hand, yeah, Christmas was formed from pagan rituals and is still highly pagan.  And I enjoy Halloween, which is technically the same situation (formerly pagan, turned Christian, became secular).

But I don't want Christmas to turn secular?  I just don't want to celebrate it.  It's got Christ right there in the name, for one thing.  I'd rather the federal government be secular, and keep dialing back the legislated Christian morality it forces on me.

I am a gay Christian, so I think I can address this. Hopefully.

It's a very touchy subject. But homophobia is not exclusive to Christianity. I know homophobic religious people. I know homophobic atheists (and I would have to say, actually, I've met more homophobic atheists, or at least non-practicing Christians than homophobic Christians). Similarly I know religious people who don't give a damn either way, and the same goes for atheists or non-Christians.
I'm only 17, and still closeted, I know my experiences are small. I know things are different outside the veil I live under.

The problem technically originates from religion (depending on denomination and interpretation of Scriptures), but I wholeheartedly believe that people who claim that "God hates gays" or "I hate gays because God hates gays" (or other such things, I'm sure you get my point) are either:
A) True sheeple, lacking any intellect and just regurgitating what they are fed without any form of reason, logic or pondering up what they read (because unfortunately the Catholic church has an anti-gay marriage stance and people take this to extremes). Times aren't medieval, we are literate and we read the Bible. Many Christian denominations promote individual interpretation of the Scripture.
B) Non-practicing "Christians" who are homophobic and claim they are Christians because it is easier to say "I hate gays because my religion" than "I hate gays because I'm intolerant".
C) I think the characters off duck dynasty deserve their own little subcategory
(ie: Westboro Baptist Church. They claim to be followers of Christ but are more hateful than almost any other group that I can think of)

And I believe that because if Jesus truly told us to love one another unconditionally and God loves us unconditionally then there is no reason for hate crimes and intolerance.

Now I'm sure people may ask how I can be both Christian and gay. Well, simply put, if there is a God in the form I believe, He knows truly my own heart. I know I didn't choose to be gay. Therefore, if I didn't choose to be gay, and I simply am, then I was at the moment of my conception. I was made this way, by Him. And if He made me this way I cannot be such an abomination that may be sometimes purported.

[Rolan7]

Fakedit:  That's cool.  The Bible's (literalist) stance on homosexuality is...  At least a little unclear, and I can't get into it right now (if I even wanted to).  I'm honestly glad your faith doesn't make you hate yourself. 

I do agree that there are many atheist homophobes (I was one, to an extent), and they do vote.  But it's not the same.  Pastors here in NC were directing their flock to vote against Proposition 8.  Republicans, and even Democrats promise to defend "Christian values" by denying us rights.  It's not just Christians, but Christians in America are far more likely to be taken in by such things.  Because instead of just "Ew gross", they can rationalize it as "I love the gay, but what they're doing is against my beliefs wrong".  Instead of hating, they think they're being kind and just. 

Also it's easier to believe that being gay is a choice, when you think that God doesn't want us to be gay.  Regardless of the facts...

Rolan, I hope this isn't a personal question, but why do you care about public symbols of Christianity?

They only really bother me when they're tied to the government.  The government is supposed to be secular and represent people of all religions.  I mean, imagine if the situation was different:

Money saying "Allahu Akbar" (Simply "God is great", but would Christians accept that?)
Pledge of allegiance saying "One nation, there is no god" (This isn't even atheist, it's anti-theist, but "we dunno if there are gods" sounds silly)
Courtroom having a statue of Satan outside next to the 10 commandments

I wouldn't be at all comfortable with the first two, even the second one, and the last one is only okay because it demonstrated that all religions are equal under US law...  Theoretically.  It'd still be weird, but work as a monument for religious liberty.

(As an aside, a Christian reacted to said statue by pretending to be Satanist and smashing the 10 commandments "In Satan's name".  Which was silly because...  These were the type of satanists who don't actually believe in Satan, just rejecting tyranny.  And a quick investigation confirmed that the guy was a church-going Christian.  And the actual Satanists responded by refusing to put up their statue until the 10 commandments were restored)

But yeah I don't like the government openly supporting Christianity to the exclusion of other faiths, or non-faith.  Heck, the 10 commandments is 3/10 "Believe in Yahweh and no other", and for a long time people thought this was an okay thing to have in courts of US law.  I won't deny things have gotten better...

[Bohandas]

Went by the post office yesterday, it was sporting a giant Christmas tree and a santa sleigh.  The US Post Office.
I mean, it's not the Ten Commandments, but this still makes me *uncomfortable* because I am *scared* of what it represents.

I think that Santa and Christmas trees are more a symbol of capitalism than christianity (not that capitalism is a good thing either; It's preferable to Maoism or Stalinism, but it's still very bad).

It's not like they had a nativity scene or whatever.

better watch out or saint nick is gonna punch all you naughty heretics in the face! and don't think he wont hes done it before! before long the Santa death squads will force you to give Christmas cheer or face death by beating with coal filled stockings to the tune of jingle bells! noting can stop his rise to power! mwahahaha!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9OEMKXtYP4

[Loud Whispers]

How are they progressive then? That's like the polar opposite of progressive.

And so is crushing free speech or supporting FGM, doesn't stop them
If it's part of a culture (not held by Westerners or those of similar character), it's sanctimonious

(He was mirroring my post)
The point is that religious progressives get convinced to vote for regressive religious stuff because of their religion.  I can't speak to Europe with any authority, but I think LW is right that it happens there too.

Worse, unelected statesmen too :D

And what does that comment about "no one is in control of anything anymore" mean and what is it's significance here?

European parliaments had their teeth pulled out but the European parliament is toothless
Only Britzerland remain

It's not harsher than christianity. Look up witch trials and the Spanish Inquisition

Look up witch trials, purges in Anatolia, Arabia, Africa, Persia and India
Hell, look up Shariah Law

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

• Every Muslim must make a visit to Mecca at least once in their lifetime if they are physically able. Similar practice is Catholics and their pilgrimages to satan pope.
• Pray 5 times a day, prostrating towards the kaaba wherever it is, reciting verses from the Qu'ran off by heart. Sunday Sacraments require pussy amounts of dedication compared to this. You can be exempt from this prayer if you are dying, menstruating or prepubescent.
• The punishment for theft is limb amputation. Varying on what Islamic legal school of thought is used, limb amputation can be eye gouging, fingers or the hand.
• Adulterers and homosexuals must be executed with stoning, requiring the witness to confess to their hudud or have four witnesses to the ""event"". Similar practice is the 16th century English buggery laws, where sex with animals or practicing sodomy was punishable by death, but in practice meant don't leave witnesses.
• Premarital sex = Lashing
• Accusing a man of rape as a woman without providing four male witnesses = Lashing
• Abusing haram toxins = Public Beheading
• Leaving the Islamic faith = Public Beheading

One thing I find fucking awesome about shariah law is that they take eye for an eye seriously. Like that one Persian lady who was blinded in an acid attack, who in response demanded that her attacker be similarly blinded with acid. Iran was going to drip acid into his eyes until he went blind but the Persian lady pardoned and forgave him, which does speak heavily to the human capacity for forgiveness. MAKE THE WORLD BLIND, LAST MAN SEEING IS KING! :D

• Get Hijabs to protect modesty. As a tip, should you as a young woman dress unconservatively by local standards and stray too far from touristy areas, do return; the fashion police are not a joke and the locals not forgiving.
• Celibacy is bad, do the opposite and have many wives. Marry only muslim women, although chaste Jews and Christians are fine. Muslim Women don't get a choice to marry infidels. In the Islamic world Muslim women don't really get a choice on who they marry, but notably this is more a facet of culture than something enshrined in Shariah law (marrying of infidels aside).
• No gay marriage, since gays must be stoned to death anyways.
• Wives must obey their husbands unless such obedience contradicts the teachings of Muhammed. No moral paradoxes
• Cook and keep her husband's house well maintained, also cannot leave her husband's house without his permission.
• Animals must be slaughtered the halal way, quickly with a blade, as painless as possible and with the animal unaware it's about to be slaughtered. Pretty much standard butchery practice, with the addendum that you can't use electrocution (boltguns are also unpopular), must drain the delicious food of as much blood as possible and can only be performed by a Muslim (though some schools say Jews and Christians can also make halal food). Also some other conditions make foods haram, like if the foods were involved in a non-Muslim religious rite or stuff like roadkill.
• No blood or pork allowed, unless in the direst situation. Black pudding is double haram

And lastly, one of my favourite:

• No usury. Can't charge interest on loans :D

Probably the biggest difference is in how keen Muslims are on Shariah law

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Dark green = Shariah law is enshrined by the government and applies to everyone
Lighter green = Shariah law is enshrined by the government and applies only to Muslims
Blue = Shariah law is not enshrined by the government but the majority of the population is Muslim, thanks to godless communists and Ataturk being cheeky
I didn't even include the nations where Shariah courts exist but are not recognized by the state, that would take much more time
Countries where Biblical or Talmudic law are enshrined in the state's law: 0
Of note is that Western Thrace in Greece has Shariah law, and some woman has gone to the European Court of Human Rights because she lost all of her inheritance under Shariah Law

[origamiscienceguy]

I can see whre those politicians are coming from, since the bible does very clearly say homosexuality is a sin. But they are making it out as if it is a bigger sin than any others. The very point of christianity is that everyone is a sinner. And Jesus died to save everybody, including the gays, rapists, liars, thieves, and blasphemers.

[smjjames]

Interesting that Tunisia, despite being a Muslim country, doesn't fall into any of those categories.

[Rolan7]

I can see whre those politicians are coming from, since the bible does very clearly say homosexuality is a sin. But they are making it out as if it is a bigger sin than any others. The very point of christianity is that everyone is a sinner. And Jesus died to save everybody, including the gays, rapists, liars, thieves, and blasphemers.

Yeah...
And a lot of sins aren't illegal, like coveting someone else's things.  Or blaspheming.  So, maybe this should be legal too, and left to individuals instead of being government-enforced?
Not demanding an answer, just making a suggestion that hopefully fits with your views.

[Loud Whispers]

Interesting that Tunisia, despite being a Muslim country, doesn't fall into any of those categories.

Nah it's blue, shariah has no legal influence

[origamiscienceguy]

I can see whre those politicians are coming from, since the bible does very clearly say homosexuality is a sin. But they are making it out as if it is a bigger sin than any others. The very point of christianity is that everyone is a sinner. And Jesus died to save everybody, including the gays, rapists, liars, thieves, and blasphemers.

Yeah...
And a lot of sins aren't illegal, like coveting someone else's things.  Or blaspheming.  So, maybe this should be legal too, and left to individuals instead of being government-enforced?
Not demanding an answer, just making a suggestion that hopefully fits with your views.

My view is that homosexuality is a sin, but that Christians should still love them as we are commanded to.

[Icefire2314]

I can see whre those politicians are coming from, since the bible does very clearly say homosexuality is a sin. But they are making it out as if it is a bigger sin than any others. The very point of christianity is that everyone is a sinner. And Jesus died to save everybody, including the gays, rapists, liars, thieves, and blasphemers.

Actually, the Bible says that the actual act of homosexual intercourse is a sin, not simply being gay. I don't remember who but I remember reading one Christian article that chaste gays are actually more pious than most Christians.

I still don't entirely agree even with that. If we are all made equal in God's eyes and sex is in fact pleasurable, I don't think God would deny one boon of life to a specific group He created, assuming that we are in fact created homosexual and it's not a choice (which I do believe).

[origamiscienceguy]

I can see whre those politicians are coming from, since the bible does very clearly say homosexuality is a sin. But they are making it out as if it is a bigger sin than any others. The very point of christianity is that everyone is a sinner. And Jesus died to save everybody, including the gays, rapists, liars, thieves, and blasphemers.

Actually, the Bible says that the actual act of homosexual intercourse is a sin, not simply being gay. I don't remember who but I remember reading one Christian article that chaste gays are actually more pious than most Christians.

I still don't entirely agree even with that. If we are all made equal in God's eyes and sex is in fact pleasurable, I don't think God would deny one boon of life to a specific group He created, assuming that we are in fact created homosexual and it's not a choice (which I do believe).

That is correct. I should have clarified that.

[wierd]

Harboring lustful thoughts is also sinful.

 Matthew 5:28New International Version (NIV)

28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Just substitute [gender] for [gender] as appropriate.  Men who desire to have sex with other men, and look at men with the desire that they would love to have sex with them (but that makes baby jesus cry!, so they totally abstain from actually trying to get that booty) are committing this sin in their hearts, according to this verse.

The working theory, as proposed by the bible, is that humans in general have a sin-nature.  That is, if you are gay, your desire to have sex with others of your own gender is part of your sin-nature. When you accept christ into your life and invite habitation by the holy spirit, that habitation begins to slowly alter your nature so that you no longer desire sinful things-- that is to say, you stop being gay, because you stop being attracted to men, due to the influence of the holy spirit.

In theory.

In practice, numerous studies have shown that sexual identity is not something that you can magic-wand away.