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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Orange Wizard]

I say presumably, because Jesus never actually did anything on a cosmic scale. It was always localised to him - parlour tricks in comparison.

Jesus himself gave the reason for this in Mark 4:12. He spoke in parables and didn't perform cosmic miracles, so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Could you explain what that one means when it's not in riddles?

Oops.

Basically means "I'm not going to make it clear that I'm the son of God because if I did, many people would understand their predicament and ask the Father for forgiveness when they're not supposed to".

[BFEL]

I say presumably, because Jesus never actually did anything on a cosmic scale. It was always localised to him - parlour tricks in comparison.

Jesus himself gave the reason for this in Mark 4:12. He spoke in parables and didn't perform cosmic miracles, so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Could you explain what that one means when it's not in riddles?

Oops.

Basically means "I'm not going to make it clear that I'm the son of God because if I did, many people would understand their predicament and ask the Father for forgiveness when they're not supposed to".

So because Jesus has a phobia of offering any proof towards anything

[Orange Wizard]

So because Jesus has a phobia of offering any proof towards anything

... I suppose you could phrase it like that if you so wished.

[origamiscienceguy]

Jesus did make it clear. He performed lots of miracles.

[Graknorke]

But how many people can see one of those? A few thousand with a really intent crowd?
Plus most of them weren't even anything particularly spectacular. Derren Brown could pull a bunch of that shit.

[origamiscienceguy]

But how many people can see one of those? A few thousand with a really intent crowd?
Plus most of them weren't even anything particularly spectacular. Derren Brown could pull a bunch of that shit.

Well, he fed a crown of over 5000 men (not including women) with a boy's lunch. Let's say a meal is .5 kilograms per person. That makes 2,500 kilograms of food. I don't think it would be possible to inconspicuously drag 2.5 megagrams of food to the edge of a lake.

[Rolan7]

Well to be fair, five loaves of bread and two fish.  But it's still certainly a miracle.

The Bible certainly has Jesus, and prophets, performing impressive miracles.  The part I don't get is why we don't get to see them.  I understand that some people believe in local, unverifiable miracles...  But these miracles were performed before crowds to convince people.  Why not perform a verifiable miracle today, and convince most of the scientific world?

[Graknorke]

Wasn't the feeding of the 5000 done in front of a crowd of people who already believed the stuff Jesus was saying? So not really convincing. More just providing a convenience for his entourage.

And we don't get miracles nowadays because letting people make informed decisions based on overwhelming evidence is a violation of free will.

[origamiscienceguy]

Perhaps because few of the scientific world would believe it. For example, (most) Christians believe God created the universe and our existence itself is a miracle.

Also, Christians are told to live by faith. (faith means to believe in something that cannot be proven. If you want me to explain further, just ask.) God created us to love us, and for his Glory. If he didn't give humans free will to choose what to believe, then we would be like robots. (Like if you told you printer to print 5000 copies of the words "I love you")

[Orange Wizard]

Don't forget 5000 copies of the words "I don't know who you are", "I can't be sure you even exist", and "I hate you" solely so you can burn them.

Also, yeah, free will. Not much Biblical precedent for it really. You can make a bit of an argument for it (mostly around "God wants us to love him of our own volition", though that's not really Biblical either) but it doesn't hold much water IMO. Not much scientific precedent for free will either, unless you want to say it's tied into quantum physics somehow.

[Rolan7]

They had heard of him and were interested, they weren't necessarily fully converted believers yet I don't think.  If any of them hadn't witnessed him do an obvious miracle before (and I bet most of them hadn't) it would dispel any doubts they had, and give them a story to share with others.

Which is the weird part, he seemed to be trying to impress people at that point.  Through performing flashy miracles and saying interesting _seditious things.
I mean, one of my favorite verses is Matthew 11:21

Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

"Me-dammit, what does it take to convince these jokers?"

Ninja'd by Origami.  But I still don't understand.  He did these miracles in front of people then, so why not now?  If it would destroy faith now, why not then?
I respectfully disagree about scientists not being convinced, by the way.  "Christians believe got created the universe and our existence itself" is not a verifiable miracle.  Changing pi to a repeating ascii message of "I'm YAHWEH, hi" would convince practically every scientist of the existence of *some* higher power.  Many might consider it a trick by a powerful yet mischievous power, maybe aliens...  So wouldn't free will still be intact?

And again, if such a display would break free will now, why not back then?

[penguinofhonor]

Right before Jesus died "darkness came over the whole land" for like three hours. Then there was a huge earthquake and a mass resurrection. Not a lot of subtlety there, or respect for anyone in the area's right to find God on their own.

[origamiscienceguy]

Well, the reason Jesus fed them all was not to show his power, but to keep them listening to him longer because they wouldn't have to dispece and find food fo themselves.

Matthew 14:15-16 As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said, “This is a remote place, and it’s already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food.”
Jesus replied, “They do not need to go away. You give them something to eat.”

[Orange Wizard]

Ninja'd by Origami.  But I still don't understand.  He did these miracles in front of people then, so why not now?

Basically, history is divided into chunks where different beings of God are interacting with Earth. In the OT, most interaction is with God the Father, with all the smiting and fire and pillars of salt. In the NT, we have Jesus (mostly) in charge, with literal tonnes of food, healing, wine, and dead figs. After the NT we have the Holy Spirit in charge, and he doesn't really do anything particularly flashy.

...

Right before Jesus died "darkness came over the whole land" for like three hours. Then there was a huge earthquake and a mass resurrection. Not a lot of subtlety there, or respect for anyone in the area's right to find God on their own.

Yeah but that was all metaphorical

[origamiscienceguy]

Ninja'd by Origami.  But I still don't understand.  He did these miracles in front of people then, so why not now?

Basically, history is divided into chunks where different beings of God are interacting with Earth. In the OT, most interaction is with God the Father, with all the smiting and fire and pillars of salt. In the NT, we have Jesus (mostly) in charge, with literal tonnes of food, healing, wine, and dead figs. After the NT we have the Holy Spirit in charge, and he doesn't really do anything particularly flashy.

There are several parts of the Bible where the three persons of God interacted with each other. So this can't be the case.

Right before Jesus died "darkness came over the whole land" for like three hours. Then there was a huge earthquake and a mass resurrection. Not a lot of subtlety there, or respect for anyone in the area's right to find God on their own.

Yeah but that was all metaphorical

How do you know?