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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Rolan7]

How much leeway is there with that?  Does every sin influence what you'll reincarnate as, or is there a way to be absolved in this life?
I'd love to hear more about Hinduism, this thread is (understandably) focused on abrahamic religions.

[Arx]

Is there somewhere I can read up on this? Searching around isn't showing up much, it's a bit odd.

[Calidovi]

But as every other religious script, the Vedas are subject to modern analyses and interpretations. Just look at the Swami Dayananda Saraswati if you want to know about Hindu modernization.

[Ghills]

Why do so many contemporary Christians, then, argue that you only have to act the latter to get into Heaven? The two parts must be equal in value.

Because people are just seeking for some excuse to be awful while still acting like they are saints:
Under James 2:19.

"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."(New International Version).
"You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder." (JW bible translation).

Believing isn't much of a requirement as a step for the former, you gotta believe that the police exist to have any motivation to follow the constituent.

Yeah, basically. But people don't need to be awful to want this, just motivated by something other than the Gospel - which, to be fair, is pretty serious morally but not the same thing as being a criminal or a terrible person to be around.

The Bible argues that, to get into their Heaven, your have to:
1. Follow God's Law
2. Believe in God

Why do so many contemporary Christians, then, argue that you only have to act the latter to get into Heaven? The two parts must be equal in value.

As to the why, I think people like what is easy. There are sections of the scripture that can be used to say that belief/faith is how people are saved, but I think that's a serious misunderstanding for convenience's sake.

True belief motivates action. So if someone says they believe in the Gospel, but don't try to keep God's commandments, do they really believe the Gospel?  Is it actually something that is important to them?  Probably not. Their church social circle, or being able to say they're religious, or cultural traditions, etc, may be more important to them and their actions reflect that motivation.  People don't have to be perfect, but if the underlying motivation for actions isn't the Gospel then it's probably not a deeply held belief and being spiritually lukewarm is not a good strategy.

It's like saying that you know eating fast food will make you fat but still eating at McDonalds every day. Words and actions need to match before either means anything.  I think this comes through fairly clearly in scripture: If ye love me keep my commandments, all the sections about false prophets and those who profess belief but never really know Christ, by their fruits ye shall know them, etc. But obviously that's YMMV.

[Rose]

How much leeway is there with that?  Does every sin influence what you'll reincarnate as, or is there a way to be absolved in this life?
I'd love to hear more about Hinduism, this thread is (understandably) focused on abrahamic religions.

You pretty much rack up a list of karma, both good and bad, that influences where you go and what happens to you. Either any of the many hellish planets, or reincarnating on earth in a body that suits your actions, or up to heaven if you've been particularly pious. But all of them are temporary, even if they can take a very long time, so you will still end up back as a human eventually.

The specific branch of Hinduism that I was raised in says that by surrendering to Krishna, you can go directly to his abode, which is outside of any material universes entirely (with regular heaven still being in this universe, if not necessarily on the same plane) which is everybody's ultimate home, and once you go back there, you've broken out of the endless cycle of birth and death, and live eternally there with Him

It's interesting to note that while mainstream Hinduism is polytheistic, this branch, the bhakti movement, is not. It says that all the gods besides Krishna are still mortals, if very powerful.

[Calidovi]

How much leeway is there with that?  Does every sin influence what you'll reincarnate as, or is there a way to be absolved in this life?
I'd love to hear more about Hinduism, this thread is (understandably) focused on abrahamic religions.

You pretty much rack up a list of karma, both good and bad, that influences where you go and what happens to you. Either any of the many hellish planets, or reincarnating on earth in a body that suits your actions, or up to heaven if you've been particularly pious. But all of them are temporary, even if they can take a very long time, so you will still end up back as a human eventually.

The specific branch of Hinduism that I was raised in says that by surrendering to Krishna, you can go directly to his abode, which is outside of any material universes entirely (with regular heaven still being in this universe, if not necessarily on the same plane) which is everybody's ultimate home, and once you go back there, you've broken out of the endless cycle of birth and death, and live eternally there with Him

It's interesting to note that while mainstream Hinduism is polytheistic, this branch, the bhakti movement, is not. It says that all the gods besides Krishna are still mortals, if very powerful.

So is that what Swami Saraswati was asserting when he has trying to push the view that Hinduism is monotheistic?

[Rose]

I actually haven't heard of Swami Dayananda Saraswati till now, so I don't know.

[redwallzyl]

Spoiler: comrade pope (click to show/hide)

on a less amusing note speration of church and state? whats that?

[Angle]

Spoiler: comrade pope (click to show/hide)

LOL! That's interesting. Cool story behind it, too.

on a less amusing note speration of church and state? whats that?

Didn't they already try that? And find that it was an unmitigated failure? I'm sure this time it will work for them...

[Rolan7]

*incoherent rage*
Seriously, religion-driven politics like that makes it hard for me to remember that these are people, just doing what they think is right.  Must not dehumanize...  Must not hate...  Understand the other side...

Like, typically my first impulse would be to write them off as nutcases who don't represent normal Christians.  But normal voting Christians have, in the past, ate this stuff up.  The exact portion depends on the specific issue, but it's made such a horrific impact on American politics.  Which is the only reason Christianity bothers me more than other religions.  I'd be arguing against Islam if we were headed towards Sharia law.

[TD1]

I'd argue vehemently against anything that gives religion more control in politics.

Where I'm from, it is present to a worrying degree.

[Frumple]

Didn't they already try that? And find that it was an unmitigated failure? I'm sure this time it will work for them...

I'm not entirely sure it counts as an unmitigated failure, exactly, when the highest offices of our legislative branch are... what was it, something like 98% christian? Which is about 23% better representation than the actual population :V

And that's not getting into the record for the executive (Every single POTUS) or judicial branches (we've had some jews there, at least, and one maybe agnostic). One of these days I'll figure out how the religious right in the US figures they're losing traction in government when christianity has an excessive stranglehold over political positions already, and doesn't actually seem to be losing it, even in the face of it being massively disproportionate to the country's actual demographics.

... seems like maybe more of a thing for the USpol thread than here, though.

[Bohandas]

How much leeway is there with that?  Does every sin influence what you'll reincarnate as, or is there a way to be absolved in this life?
I'd love to hear more about Hinduism, this thread is (understandably) focused on abrahamic religions.

You pretty much rack up a list of karma, both good and bad, that influences where you go and what happens to you. Either any of the many hellish planets, or reincarnating on earth in a body that suits your actions, or up to heaven if you've been particularly pious. But all of them are temporary, even if they can take a very long time, so you will still end up back as a human eventually.

The specific branch of Hinduism that I was raised in says that by surrendering to Krishna, you can go directly to his abode, which is outside of any material universes entirely (with regular heaven still being in this universe, if not necessarily on the same plane) which is everybody's ultimate home, and once you go back there, you've broken out of the endless cycle of birth and death, and live eternally there with Him

It's interesting to note that while mainstream Hinduism is polytheistic, this branch, the bhakti movement, is not. It says that all the gods besides Krishna are still mortals, if very powerful.

Even Vishnu??

[wierd]

Yes.

I am not an adherent, but the gods, and their servitors in the heavens are not themselves omnipotent, nor are they truly immortal.  The way I have read of this, is that the Narakas (hells) and the Nirvanas (heavens) experience time differently than the earth plane does, and the beings living in them live substantially longer regardless.

A person who is sadly born into say, the crushing death Naraka, can expect to be crushed to "death" repeatedly for several thousand years, at least, before they finally actually get to really die, and get reincarnated on another plane.  Karmic consequences (A much better term to use than "debt") can take time to manifest, and thereby manipulate how the next incarnation will go. 

Japa is probably a better source on the topic, I have only passively read on it for comparative religious investigation on pure curiosity. Japa has however, gotten to sample the full ethnic religious experience.

[Robsoie]

Even James, who took a hardline stand on this, doesn't say faith without perfection is dead - he says faith without action is dead.

To add on that point, that faith is not to be passive and without deeds to be alive, there's the Christ's parable of the Sheep and the Goats (it's in Matthew 25 for those interested to check) that is interesting to keep in mind.