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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[wierd]

Luke 12:4

In context, starting from Luke 12:1

1In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known. 3Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. 6Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? 7But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

8Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: 9But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. 10And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. 11And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: 12For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

Here's a short list of others, without context.

Proverbs 1:7 - The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 8:13 - The fear of the LORD [is] to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 - Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

Proverbs 14:26 - In the fear of the LORD [is] strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge.

Job 28:28 - And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that [is] wisdom; and to depart from evil [is] understanding.

Psalms 33:8 - Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.

Deuteronomy 10:12 - And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Proverbs 14:27 - The fear of the LORD [is] a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

Proverbs 3:7 - Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

Psalms 25:14 - The secret of the LORD [is] with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

Luke 1:50 - And his mercy [is] on them that fear him from generation to generation.

Psalms 111:10 - The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do [his commandments]: his praise endureth for ever.

Psalms 86:11 - Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name.

Isaiah 41:10 - Fear thou not; for I [am] with thee: be not dismayed; for I [am] thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

Philippians 2:12-13 - Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.   (Read More...)

Proverbs 16:6 - By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD [men] depart from evil.

Psalms 34:9 - O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for [there is] no want to them that fear him.

[UXLZ]

Spoiler: Arx (click to show/hide)

It's not like He's even the one who punishes sinners when they die, it's technically Satan/Hell who does that.

"It's not my mom that spanks me, it's the spoon she uses that does that."

Question: Does anyone know where the phrase/expression "Fear of God" comes from (at least the one in relation to the Christian God)?

It's fear as in respect. I'm God-fearing because I 'fear' Him enough to keep His commands, but it's a lot more like I respect Him enough.

A spoon doesn't have agency. Unless you want to try and talk about free-will, and how meaningless all of existence is if God-as-written actually were to be real (also, if God is in charge of Satan's actions a la the spoon, how is Satan evil?).

Still, thanks for the explanation. I thought it might have been something similar-ish to respect, but it's still an odd way of saying it.

@Weird: Also thanks, for the references. The Luke one explains it how I sort of envisioned it, but proverb 8:13 makes literally no sense to me.

[wierd]

Here it is in context.

Proverbs 8
1Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
2She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
3She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
4Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
5O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
6Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
7For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
12I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
13The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
14Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
15By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
16By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
32Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
33Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
34Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
36But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

It is basically asserting that fear of god is essential to being upright and proper in one's dealing with the allmighty one.

The creator of this this text would despise me greatly, as I denounce his words as being true knowledge, as pointed out previously. His statement in proverbs 8:9 are quantitatively false, as I personally seek true knowledge, and his words ring not with truth or understanding, but with delusion and deception to me. He tries so very hard to play the confidence man.

[Rose]

As the the son of somebody who converted to Hinduism, living in a town full of people who have converted to Hinduism, coming from all sorts of countries and backgrounds, what would cause somebody to do that?

Like, I look at our scriptures, and they're pretty obviously full of contradictions and logical loops, and any historical events described are clearly embellished, and yet, a large number of people look at them, and go "Whelp, I guess this must be the truth."

[wierd]

Aren't self-referential axioms a bitch?

"The bible is the TRUTH, because the bible SAYS it is!"

[Rose]

The Gita is the absolute truth because it's the direct word of God.

We know it's the direct word of God because the Gita says it is.

[wierd]

Precisely.

I dont have do deal with many hindu individuals trying to tell me how evil my life is and how I will spend eternity in some eternal torment for some perceived transgressions though.  That particular.. erhm... honor?.. usually falls to the judeo-christian fundamentalists who despise me on many levels. (1, I am an evil agnostic, and 2, I am asexual and thus do not adhere to their heteronormative divine narrative structure, amongst others.)

As such, I have to work with what I usually deal with, and that is the self-referential axiom of the christian bible.  I want to liberate minds from dogmatic beliefs. I dont want to steal people's faith. They are not the same thing.  The dogmatist does not think, and simply just believes without any understanding or consideration.  A person with more genuine faith has such understanding, and chooses to retain their belief.

The former despises logic, reason, and rationality. The latter accepts it, and rather than reacting negatively, they respond with answers that are as well-reasoned as they are personally capable of producing.  I am very much against the former, and will accept the latter without reservation-- It is enough for me that they have actually chosen, rather than simply been told.

In order to get the dogmatists that blithely hurl insults and blatant falsehoods around to stop what they are doing and enter into being this more desirable second kind of theist, I have to make use of the self-referential axiom stated above. I dislike doing so, but that is the logical framework that they are operating under.

[Rose]

Heh, as an asexual, you'd probably be welcomed here. Perfect for celibate life and all that.

[wierd]

While I am what I am, I understand my nature well enough to know that it is not an ideal.  It would be if I was an immortal, ageless being. As a mortal creature doomed to inevitable decline, the isolation that invariably comes from not having an impulse for romantic or sexual relations with others places me at a marked disadvantage that I can readily see.

Be that as it may, I am the way I am. I cannot change that.

My usual weapon of choice in this matter comes from the new testament:

Matthew 19 New International Version (NIV)
Divorce

19 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

That usually is enough to get them to stop being all mad at me for not rushing out and clinging to a wife like "God intended".
While I have all the parts, and thus am not a physiological eunuch, I was born without any real sexual impulse, and am thus STILL a "born eunuch."  For all intents and purposes, I might as well not even have a gender.


It is much harder for the bisexual or homosexual to get them off their backs though, sadly.

[Arx]

Heh, I always like to throw James 2 at people: "If any man considers himself religious yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives hinself and his religion is worthless".

[UXLZ]

People who abuse religion will pretty much always abuse religion, it just depends on how quickly they can find one.

[Bohandas]

It is why most fantasy worlds with magic bore me. If you have magic, how have you not reached science fiction technologies yet? Ever-burning fire? Indefinite electricity. Et cetera.

necessity is the mother of invention.

If you can just wiggle your nose and shit happens, why wrack your brain trying to design a technological solution?

THAT is why worlds with magic need to have magic be something that only SOME people have, otherwise the world produced does not resemble anything we are familiar with, and is too alien for the player/reader to relate to. It is also why technology does not advance very quickly-- people can go see Mr Magician, and "Get shit fixed literally with magic", even if they themselves are incapable of magic. You see that sorta today with people pawning broken tech onto their tech savvy brother in law to get it fixed on the cheap. They are tech-tarded themselves, but know somebody that isnt, and can fix their blunders.

Same basic thing--- Different setting. 

I seem to recall hearing about a short story based on this idea.

---back on topic:

In the case of "supernatural", simply look up the definition of the word.

supernatural
adj. adjective

    1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
    2. Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
    3. Of or relating to a deity.
    4. Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.
    5. Of or relating to the miraculous.

Science deals with nature. It has no traction with things outside of nature. (Even things we consider "unnatural", like say assisted fertility--if you are right wing wacko enough-- still deal with natural forces and natural consequences. They are not "supernatural".)

Thus, by definition-- supernatural things are not verifiable using empirical methodologies.

Well if you're using the borad definition of "natural" as simply "something which exists" then there's also by definition nothing outside of nature.

[SirQuiamus]

In related news, transhumanists are becoming increasingly upfront about the religious nature of their ideology:

Humanity+ and the Upcoming Battle between Good and Evil

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The aspiration for such a superhuman race is not a recent dream. In fact, over a century ago, Nietzsche wrote, in Also Sprach Zarathustra, that the ultimate purpose of humankind was to create a being transcending human abilities, an ubermensch. While ubermensch is often translated into English as “super man”, it is actually much closer to the concept of H+. The ubermensch was a person above all weaker beings, an empiricist who gained knowledge from his senses just as H+ will gain knowledge from trillions of sensors. The ubermensch would not be constrained by religious truisms but understand Nature directly.

However, ubermensch and H+ differ in at least two ways. First, Nietzsche’s character denigrated Platonic concepts and other abstractions because he considered them removed from experience, whereas we now view conceptual hierarchies as the brain’s means to find pattern and thinking efficiently. We expect H+ to be able to abstract patterns in ways that will enable it to predict future developments far better than homo sapiens. Secondly, H+ differs from ubermensch in its attitude toward the body. Nietzsche saw the body as the essence of humankind. H+ hopes to escape it. In fact, the H+ holy grail of substrate-independent intelligence – uploading brains — very closely mirrors the Christian concept of a soul, the essence of a person that lives on after the body dies.

This other-worldly aspiration was anathema to Nietzsche at the time because it was not grounded in reality. Would he feel the same way today when physics has transformed much of the invisible to material? Perhaps not.

Why Christians Should Embrace Transhumanism

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Much of the distress about transhumanism by Christians in the past surrounds its proponent’s vocal Atheistic attempts to define the prefix “trans” in ways that advocate individual enhancement through technological means to become “post” human. Many of these perspectives tend to lend themselves to the narcissistic hubris associated with Nietzschean self-actualization that forsakes the needs of the whole of humanity in exchange for self-glorification and exclusive personal gain. Anyone, with even the slightest sensitivity to past events in world history, can appreciate why those who advocate peace and justice would not want to support such behavior. It is understandable then, why Christians have appropriately reacted with caution and concern.

And while certainly such trepidations are not without legitimacy, there is larger concern that should be considered. Mainly that, by not embracing transhumanism, Christianity may be “throwing out the baby with the bathwater.” That is because the aforementioned interpretation of transhumanism is not the only or legitimate understanding of what the movement is or could be in the future.

For instance, a more nuanced meaning of the prefix “trans” is one that implies traversing “across” the scope of what it might mean to be human. Such an understanding does not signify a forfeiture of our humanity but a collective bettering of it. This view of transhumanism thus empowers Christians to advocate for the development and utilization of technology for the intentional goal of participating in Christ’s redemptive purposes for humanity and all of creation. In doing so, we may then be able to continue to technologically enhance humanity in ways that honor God, helping us to more fully flourish as human beings made in God’s Image.

They've somehow managed to reconcile Nietzsche with Christianity by turning both of them on their heads and wrapping them in waterproof fustian. Pretty impressive.

Let me make a Singularitarian prediction: Within the next 25 years, Transhumanism will surpass Buddhism as the 4th-largest World religion. It is inevitable.

[Arx]

Why anyone should embrace transhumanism: it's pretty damn cool. Why anyone should be cautious of transhumanism: you're screwing with the only body you have and most of this stuff isn't exact taught at med school.

But generally I don't think Christianity rejects transhumanism. Heck, my mother's response to the magnetic field implants a while ago was to say she wished she could get them, and she's a minister. Christians might reject it, though.

[Bohandas]

I am rem9nded of the epistle of Jesse Sump:

"In the End Times it shall come to pass that they are NOT the End Times;
and neither shall they cast out the false prophets;
But the same old shit, yea, and rumors of the same old shit;
shall continue, even unto Eternity."