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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

IIRC the only stuff that my church uses is the Bible and no other documents sooooo.... Ya I believe man can't work his way into heaven and his good works pale in comparison to his sin.

[Orange Wizard]

Oh, I'm not saying it's enough to grant entry into heaven, not by any stretch. The point is that believers are not always sinners - it is possible by the Holy Spirit for one to follow the law of God, for a time.

And the Canons (along with other creeds and confessions) are intended to be a summary of the Church's interpretation of the Bible. They're not binding, if you will, but useful tools. Otherwise one has to know the entire Bible back to front to know where to find everything relevant, when checking another document provides all the relevant information in a much more accessible format.

[origamiscienceguy]

The Bible is pretty clear that works will not be enough:

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

[Descan]

Oh, I'm not saying it's enough to grant entry into heaven, not by any stretch.

Seems rude to just ignore that, Origami.

[TheDarkStar]

The Bible is pretty clear that works will not be enough:

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

On the other hand, there's (James chapter 1 or 2 somewhere) "Faith without works is dead". I believe that people should do all they can to be a good person and repent of what they've done then Christ does the rest.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

The Bible is pretty clear that works will not be enough:

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

On the other hand, there's (James chapter 1 or 2 somewhere) "Faith without works is dead". I believe that people should do all they can to be a good person and repent of what they've done then Christ does the rest.

Like I said earlier, good works are highly encouraged but not required to gain entry. Though if you are able to do terrible things with no remorse then they may not have real faith but that's something on a personal level that others can't tell

[origamiscienceguy]

Oh, I'm not saying it's enough to grant entry into heaven, not by any stretch.

Seems rude to just ignore that, Origami.

Sorry, Mr. Wizard. I read that wrong.

@TheDarkStar: Yes, I agree that you should try to do good. It doesn't save you though. However, there is a judgement in heavan (not sure what it's called) where you get crowns for what you've done on earth.

[TheDarkStar]

Oh, I'm not saying it's enough to grant entry into heaven, not by any stretch.

Seems rude to just ignore that, Origami.

Sorry, Mr. Wizard. I read that wrong.

@TheDarkStar: Yes, I agree that you should try to do good. It doesn't save you though. However, there is a judgement in heavan (not sure what it's called) where you get crowns for what you've done on earth.

I agree with this, actually. I meant that while Christ saves you, it's also important to do good to get the full rewards after death. Simply living and then dying has some basic things it get you (resurrection), but what happens to you then (good or bad) depends on how you lived.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

While it is mentioned that each will recurve their crowns for how well they lived for the glory of god it is also said that all shall remove their crowns and give them back to god IIRC, so if I'm not wrong it implies that heaven is equal for everyone and there is no bonuses just for living a better life.

(This whole rest of the post is IIRC, I don't remember what verses this is from. If anyone knows please help)
The parable about the workers in the (vineyard?) where a man goes out to hire men to harvest his grapes and he tells them he'll pay them for their work. A few men go when he first asks and more flow in as the day goes by. At the end of the day everyone who came to work for the man, no matter how long they worked, was given the same pay for their work. When one of the workers who came first asked the man why he payed them the same and not less for those who came later he replied saying that he payed him as he said he would and that he shouldn't worry about the others.

[penguinofhonor]

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

“About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

“‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

“When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

“The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

“But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

“So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Thank you

[origamiscienceguy]

While it is mentioned that each will recurve their crowns for how well they lived for the glory of god it is also said that all shall remove their crowns and give them back to god IIRC, so if I'm not wrong it implies that heaven is equal for everyone and there is no bonuses just for living a better life.

Well, It seems that everyone would want to give their crowns back to God as an honor. So the ones without any won't get to do that.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Everyone receives a crown but not everyone gets extra agent ones

My youth pastor compared it as, someone who gets saved on their death bed that hated religion till that point gets a copper wire circlet while someone that is extremely devout and brings glory to gods name would get something like a golden crown covered in many gems and people better than that get crowns stacked upon crowns

Though that may not be right
The pint is everyone would have a crown to give back just not everyone gets an extravagant crown

[Frumple]

... but the crowns don't really... do, anything? Just a means of, what, social stratification in the hereafter or...? Sounds kinda' distasteful, honestly...

How the zog do you reward more someone that has heaven, anyway? Isn't that supposed to be the infinite reward, right there?

[Orange Wizard]

It's mostly speculative.

By which I mean almost entirely speculative.