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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 686087 times)

Angle

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1425 on: March 26, 2015, 04:17:42 pm »

I think that the argument is that the tree being accessible was part of free will. In which case, why weren't there a billion other options? Hell, we still have free will, right? So where's the tree now? Shouldn't we have the option to take another bite, or try the other tree out, etc, etc?
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TD1

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1426 on: March 26, 2015, 04:34:37 pm »

Think about it honestly, would you have done the same thing?
Haven't read past this, but God no.
Only someone evil blames someone for what others did. Or someone benevolently stupid. "And the sins of the father shall be visites unto the tenth generation..."
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andrea

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1427 on: March 26, 2015, 05:57:08 pm »

I think that the argument is that the tree being accessible was part of free will. In which case, why weren't there a billion other options? Hell, we still have free will, right? So where's the tree now? Shouldn't we have the option to take another bite, or try the other tree out, etc, etc?

(Disclaimer: I am not quite a christian and I am just voicing my thoughts from what I know of the adam and eve story)

Another bite wouldn't make much sense. we already got the full effects from the first one.
As for the billion other options... that is sort of what we got from tasting the fruit of nowledge of good and evil, isn't it? Being able to tell them apart means being able to choose, constantly, and we got thrown in a world with billions of meaningful choices to make ( meaningful here meaning between good and evil).
And for the other tree, the tree of life... I don't think it is much relevant. It is not about choices, but rather achieving a state.


by the way, I have a question to people more knowledgeable:

Is it possible that knowledge of good and evil came not from the tree itself, but from the events that followed? We disobeyed God's orders and as a result we got punished. That would establish the fact that God's commands are good, while satan's temptations are evil ( carrot and stick teaching). Is it a feasible interpretation?

origamiscienceguy

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1428 on: March 26, 2015, 06:02:56 pm »

Genesis 3:7: "At that moment [after they ate the fruit] their eyes were opened and they were ashamed of their nakedness" So yeah, their knowledge came from the tree.
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TD1

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1429 on: March 26, 2015, 06:07:04 pm »

So do you also believe that the world was made in six days, the species snake lost its legs because of what a fallen angel did and that Adam's son just bumped into a wife?
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1430 on: March 26, 2015, 06:46:27 pm »

I believe that the world was made in 6 days. Since Jesus quotes from genesis, I take it literally. The bible never says that snakes ever had legs, although it is a possibility. I think that Satan was possessing a serpent and therefore got the name "serpent" instead of him assuming the form of a serpent. (if you want references, I can give them to you, I'd just have to flip around a bit) God made every animal unique with its own set of skills to survive, and snakes have bodies that allow them to survive, so God wasn't outcasting them in particular, but he was probably humiliating Satan. About Cain's wife, I assume he married a sister or niece. Cain certainly wasn't the only sinner on the earth.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1431 on: March 26, 2015, 11:12:22 pm »

There is a fair bit of incest in the OT.
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1432 on: March 27, 2015, 07:48:52 am »

It's also worth mentioning that at no point does the Bible explicitly state that Adam and Eve were the only ones created in God's image, nor that there will never be anything else in God's image.

If a sub-group of chimpanzees were to evolve to our level of intelligence, tool use, social structure, language and so on, such that they were functionally the same as humans, I wouldn't reject the possibility that they were in His image out of hand.
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1433 on: March 27, 2015, 08:35:12 am »

God didn't cause disease or death, that was Adam and Eve back in the garden of Eden (and Satan too)
They may have triggered it, but they certainly didn't set the trap, and they weren't equiped with the tools to detect it. It is a meaningless choice if you are not aware of the consequences, might as well throw a coin.
Allowing the existence of bad choices isn't required for "free will", you can still have meaningful choices even if all of them are perfectly good choices. Unavoidable disasters dont "improve" free will but terminates it. It is clear that god didn't give either Adam or myself every choice possible, since we aint omnipotent or omniscient, so he's quite confortable with limiting free will. There isn't a benevolent reason for god to allow the bad choices of some people to doom some innocents, or even the totality of mankind.

Why, in this universe created by an all powerfull and absolutely benevolent god, the selfish, ignorant, or evil choices of some people more often than not have worse consequences for innocent people than for the sinners themselves?

Will we not have free will in paradise? Is it as shity as here? Or only those who never make wrong choices get in there?

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1434 on: March 27, 2015, 09:47:26 am »

As noted a few times, now, even if it's technically what amounts to an editing decision rather than the initial wording, YWHW is perfectly willing to usurp free will entirely, as seen by the whole heart-hardened pharaoh bit. Free will is not as big of a deal to the critter as people like to play up... unless you're willing to fall back to what the actual original passage for that bit was, and accept the existence of other gods like the folks that first cobbled together the OT did.

And as OW likes to remind people, the bible doesn't really support the image that the critter is all that benevolent. Even if christian believers for a while now have liked playing up the whole omni-benevolence angle, it's not really all that representative of the bible's depiction of the divine. Christian god isn't particularly the nicest thing to roam about. Its actions are definitely at odds with something that is omni-benevolent, but that's pretty easily explained by it, well, not being that. Or all that benevolent at all.
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wierd

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1435 on: March 27, 2015, 10:25:47 am »

It can also be explained the way the bible tries to explain it allegorically-- 

That the benevolence of the divine is not easily understood (Things seem adversarial to humans, but are actually intended for a benevolent purpose) by humans.

The allegory is "Parent instructing child"--  While falling out of favor today, spanking is the physical bottom slapping of a petulant child, for the purposes of correcting behavior until they are old enough to understand why something is not acceptable to do, to prevent them from falling into a pattern of behavior (and also to train them down a different pattern of behavior that is in their best interests,)  Ask any little kid who gets a spanking though-- Mommy and daddy are big meanies who wont let them get their way.

God tries to instruct humanity, and also tries to instruct individual humans. He has a purpose for this instruction, and this instruction can take the form of destructive actions.  The "omni-benevolence" that humans idealize, optimizes human petulance, not human benefit. Naturally, a truly benevolent god would not behave this way, lest his creations run totally rampant.

Even in more modern parenting approaches, ask the bratty kid how he/she feels about time-outs, or having their toys/privs taken away.  The kid's view of what a benevolent parent would be, would be one where mommy and daddy give them cookies and icecream whenever they want, they never have to clean their room, and they never get punished for anything.

As adults, we like to try to think that we understand things-- but one look at global politics, how we treat the global climate--- hell, ANYTHING related to the public commons, and we clearly get schooled about how we DONT understand things, and as a group, expect cookies and icecream all the time.

The christian god claims to have humanity's total best interests in mind, which is why he chastises with a rod of iron. Quite literally, the bible has that exact message repeated many times.


From what I have been able to determine after reading this particular set of religious texts, the purpose for which humanity was created was NOT blind supplication; god already had angels for that purpose. Rather, it was an attempt at procreation. Something literally LIKE himself.  Allegorically, humans are like gods, when measured against other animal forms here on earth. We can literally tear down mountains into rubble, we can make fertile lands desolate for millenia with atomic bombs-- we can even create new lifeforms these days.   This appears to be purposeful, and expected. As the christ put it, "The son does as the father does", paraphrased.  God created lifeforms, we seem compelled to do so as well, within our more limited capacities.  Rather, the christian god has always existed, and we have a moment in which we begin existence. As such, we are not blessed from birth with perfect omniscience, and so we cannot make perfect choices, and as a race, we are POWERFULLY destructive.  Since the goal is to ultimately MAKE us into immortal, much more powerful beings later, the avenues of education are not limited to "Do this or else!"-- but also includes "See what happened to you when Robert mugged and raped you to death in that alley? He overpowered you without even a thought for your concern. Now you understand, directly, why this is evil."  etc.  Remember, death is not an obstacle to god, and is thus as good a teaching tool as any other. 

Again, difference of opinion on what "Omni benevolence" means.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 10:43:33 am by wierd »
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1436 on: March 27, 2015, 10:35:49 am »

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« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 02:40:00 pm by penguinofhonor »
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wierd

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1437 on: March 27, 2015, 10:43:52 am »

See the edit.
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Bohandas

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1438 on: March 27, 2015, 10:46:30 am »

Quote from: Genesis
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

It's details like this which sometimes make me wish I believed, because God is so often written as a villain being set up to be defeated.

Edit: If only we had a hero like Prometheus, to steal the fruit as he stole the secret of fire.
Look at it this way: If God had truly wanted Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, why did He put it there in the first place?

I'm gonna say passive-aggression
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1439 on: March 27, 2015, 11:06:18 am »

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« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 02:40:07 pm by penguinofhonor »
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