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Author Topic: Intel vs AMD, or: share your PC and framerate!  (Read 8687 times)

vomov

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Re: Intel vs AMD, or: share your PC and framerate!
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2015, 12:27:16 pm »

The thing is, unless you're taking precisely timed measurements, time is already a factor.  "Assuming you let the game run for a bit" means, in experimental terms, "let your silly human brain find the moment that best satisfies its biases."

That's true; you'd get a more reliable result if you'd get rid of observer bias and let DFhack average over a specific bit of time. Looking at my running fort, though, I'd have to say it's not that variable; FPS drops from pause to a stable 27, and moves between 25 to 29, so I'd say 27 is the median (to avoid details about skewness etc.) and run with that. FPS doesn't have to be that accurate; a difference between 30 and 35, for example, is not worth creating, distributing, and running a separate script for. (that said, now I want to make a DFhack script that does exactly that).

Yes, but a higher FPS can indicate two things: a better CPU or more efficient fort design.
Exactly my point; fort design is a big confounder, and it would require a massive amount of forts to cover all our bases. On the other hand, using the same fort and varying the PC can yield a difference score, which corrects for at least part of the variation that fort introduces (I would guess that it actually corrects for most of the variation, but have no data to support that).
Ideally, a set of different forts going over multiple computers would be desired, but that's not feasible, considering the possibilities on both ends, I would say.

Let's say, five people find a consistent difference of 20 between their two PC's (total 10 PC's, yes). We then compare these PC's, and we see in one set an sandybridge, and the others are a older processors with the same capabilities. It's not that simple, but with enough data, patterns emerge.

Actually, when I started this tread, I was hoping for someone to say "Oi, I also play DF from my dropbox, and my Intel laptop does indeed run faster than my AMD workhorse!"
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Thief^

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Re: Intel vs AMD, or: share your PC and framerate!
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2015, 01:16:55 pm »

I run DF on my AMD laptop at a playable framerate, at 1 year with a 2x2 embark and no special effort made to optimise it. It's only a very cheap laptop, so it's got a 1.5 GHz AMD E-series chip, so quite frankly I'm amazed.

On the performance end, modern performance Intel chips (i.e. the i7) easily outperform anything by AMD in single-threaded tasks like Dwarf Fortress. I wouldn't expect the same to be true with your quoted Pentium 4 from yonks ago, so I'd think something's broken with your test (or pc).
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 01:18:42 pm by Thief^ »
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It's not an embark so much as seven dwarves having a simultaneous strange mood and going off to build an artifact fortress that menaces with spikes of awesome and hanging rings of death.

malvado

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Re: Intel vs AMD, or: share your PC and framerate!
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2015, 10:33:59 pm »

It sounds like something is wrong...

One of those things that does mess with Amd performance is a bios setting which is called sometimes "Cool N Quiet" , disable it and you will probably gain some performance.
I have an FX 8350 ( Sure , the IPC per core is not as good as Intel ) and after tweaking the settings I usually get more than 100fps playable for several years on 40.24 ( I did have issues with several versions before like 40.21 and earlier).

A little warning though , Cool n quiet is meant to keep your cpu cool, if you have a bad cpu cooler and live in a hot area it could in worst case scenario overheat your cpu , but it's not very likely.
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vomov

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Re: Intel vs AMD, or: share your PC and framerate!
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2015, 04:15:55 am »

One of those things that does mess with Amd performance is a bios setting which is called sometimes "Cool N Quiet"

That seems logical; Cool 'N Quiet reduces clock frequency and voltage, and has been known to be slow-responding from time to time. In my old PC I had a Phenom X4 965 BE, and I had to disable this too, since it would mess with games with variable demands (Crysis, I think), and I've been disabling it ever since.

Addition: just ran DF on a DN2800MT (with 4GB 800MHz RAM), which has no issues running DF (same fort, around 50FPS), even though it has abysmal specs.
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Putnam

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Re: Intel vs AMD, or: share your PC and framerate!
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2015, 04:30:22 pm »

I present to you an objective comparison between 3 CPUs.

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare.php?cmp[]=1081&cmp[]=1955&cmp[]=1782

A comparison between:

3.8 GHz Intel Pentium 4
1.7 GHz Intel Core i7-4650U
3.5 GHz AMD FX-8320 Eight-Core (my own CPU)

As you can see from the comparison, the Core i7 is the best CPU for Dwarf Fortress between the 3, with a single thread rating of 1837 (vs 1403 for the AMD CPU and 844 for the Pentium 4).

Orange Wizard

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Re: Intel vs AMD, or: share your PC and framerate!
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2015, 05:17:36 pm »

The forum borked your URL.
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Putnam

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Re: Intel vs AMD, or: share your PC and framerate!
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2015, 05:24:01 pm »

I know. There's really no way to fix it.

vomov

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Re: Intel vs AMD, or: share your PC and framerate!
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2015, 05:02:53 am »

You can really just go for the single thread rating?

Using the mean of three measurements, my current work PC scores a fine 1151, my home monster scores around 1460. FPS is still the same, and the opposite of what I'm seeing here...

On the other hand, I just got access to another PC, a Intel i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, which plays the same fort at 120FPS, and has a whopping 1939 single thread rating.

Moreover, if I overclock my home PC to 4.2GHz, I do see a massive improvement, and the single tread jumps to around 1800. FPS jumps to ~100, and seems stable enough. I've got passive cooling, so no noise, and the processor doesn't jump to dangerous temperatures, so I guess it's fine. Power usage jumps from a neat 28W to 83W.

It would seem my home PC is the odd duck in this comparison, but only if I leave it at a 'comfy' 3.8GHz. If I push it to 4.2 it starts behaving 'normally'. Single thread rating seems to have a connection with FPS (which makes sense), and Intel seems (after scouring Passmark a bit) to be a lot better at that than AMD. Thanks Putnam!
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 09:21:24 am by vomov »
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Putnam

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Re: Intel vs AMD, or: share your PC and framerate!
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2015, 05:19:24 am »

Yeah, but you have to keep in mind other circumstances.

Which is kinda useless anyway since almost every single CPU nowadays is quad-core (the "eight core" thing is basically a lie, relying on non-standard definitions of the term "core")

Bloax

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Re: Intel vs AMD, or: share your PC and framerate!
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2015, 02:56:24 pm »

So, when is someone going to actually upload something to benchmark against? :v

Because we can have discussions about how CPU architecture affects DF performance all day long and it'll help us exactly none without actual fucking data.
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vomov

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Re: Intel vs AMD, or: share your PC and framerate!
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2015, 03:35:03 pm »

So, when is someone going to actually upload something to benchmark against? :v
I made a point earlier about not doing that, since that would be a poor representation of DF. We can upload a lot of them, but who's going to test them all? And then we'd still need someone to do some heavy datamining. Better to find the big differences, by simple comparisons, and let the confounders work for us.
Because we can have discussions about how CPU architecture affects DF performance all day long and it'll help us exactly none without actual fucking data.
I'm sorry, I didn't want to start huge discussions. I just wanted to find out if I was the only one that found AMD lacking in performance when DF was considered. So far, I've not found a 'why', but did find a bit of supporting evidence in the single thread performance. Maybe someone could produce some correlations between single thread performance and DF performance, but that'll just prove what we already know. In my specific case, I'll have to start digging deeper, or simply OC my PC.
without actual fucking data.
No need to be coarse. Putnam provided some data, and I provided some. While it might not be easily comparable, and potentially lacking in relevance, I think this is more than enough for what I was looking for. As I said earlier, for a theoretical next step we'd need a LOT more, and I don't think that's worth it. Perhaps I should have performed some in-depth searches concerning the specific requirements of DF and capabilities of different processors before posting this as a question (and most certainly before creating a bug report. Sorry).
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superbob

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Re: Intel vs AMD, or: share your PC and framerate!
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2015, 10:09:47 pm »

Wait, there's no benchmark fort available yet?

I think all it would take are:
  • Macros or quickfort blueprints for test forts
  • Files to increase starting point cap and profiles to go with these quick forts
  • Instructions on how to use DFHack to speed up setting up the fort and getting a lot of dwarves
  • Someone to generate a new fort whenever a new version comes out.

My fort ideas are
  • A fort that contains a lot of winding corridors leading to workshops, stockpiles and many dead ends
  • A fort that's a flat circle with lots of stockpiles, clutter and workshops setup (optionally in the middle of a catsplosion)

This would help measure performance in worst case scenarios, where differences between hardware ought to be most evident. While not very useful for estimating FPS in a typical game, this method might provide a baseline from which things could only get better.
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Thief^

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Re: Intel vs AMD, or: share your PC and framerate!
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2015, 05:38:44 am »

How about we just take one of the community fort saves as a representative sample?
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Dwarven blood types are not A, B, AB, O but Ale, Wine, Beer, Rum, Whisky and so forth.
It's not an embark so much as seven dwarves having a simultaneous strange mood and going off to build an artifact fortress that menaces with spikes of awesome and hanging rings of death.

vomov

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Re: Intel vs AMD, or: share your PC and framerate!
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2015, 06:05:29 am »

We'd need multiple forts, since DF performance depends on loads of things. World size, number of caverns, history length, embark size, embark type (river, ocean, sandbox, forest), fortress design (pathfinding, mainly), specific architecture (like flowing water), number of dwarves, and a LOT more. A single fort cannot represent all of DF performance, and we'd need fortresses that are comparable to figure out which details affect what. For example; two similar fortresses, one with a mist generator, and one without. Or two similar fortresses, in differently sized worlds. That is, if we go for the full-on scientific method; a set of 'in-use' fortresses could also work, but will be way less accurate; we'll be able to find only the largest affectors.
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Miuramir

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Re: Intel vs AMD, or: share your PC and framerate!
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2015, 11:50:22 am »

You can really just go for the single thread rating?

It is probably still the case, although not proven, that a small enough fort with little enough history, few enough items and dwarves, etc. is CPU bound, and the readily accessible measure that comes closest to representing DF performance in this case is the single thread rating. 

In cases of larger forts, it is almost certainly I/O bound; the limiting factor is sustained (not burst) transfer from the main memory to the actual core (through various levels of cache, which don't help as much in this case).  The single number that comes closest to representing this is probably the transfer rate of your memory (as long as the motherboard and supporting chipsets support it).  The speed of the memory directly affects this within a family, but can be difficult to compare between generations; you need to look at the transfer rate in bits or bytes per unit time. 

In other programs I/O bound processes can also be dependent on networking or interconnect speed, which is irrelevant for DF, or on either burst or sustained hard drive transfer rates, which has an effect on startup speed for DF, but on a system with reasonable modern memory is largely irrelevant once everything has been loaded.  (The DF program code and all of its data together, can't exceed 4 GB total due to 32-bit limitations; and is usually smaller, less than 2 GB.  On a modern system with at least 3 GB of free memory, it should only need to read from disk once, and be fully resident in main memory thereafter.) 

This is unlike almost all other gaming, and much more like a scientific workstation running older single-threaded code with a large data set for a simulation.  Which, when you think about it carefully, isn't that surprising. 

Much of modern computing is about multi-core performance, and much of that is about cache size and optimization.  DF's data set is simply too large to fit in even an on-package cache, let alone the smaller on-die ones; so it's the transfer rate into the CPU package from the motherboard that limits everything. 

My recommendation for a DF system varies somewhat as we find out more info on DF and technology changes, but is usually close to:
1) Figure out the best cooling system that you are willing to put up with (in the case of desktops), listen to, and/or carry (in the case of laptops).  Laptop performance is almost entirely cooling dominated, and single-core sustained turbo ratings can be significantly different on a desktop with better cooling. 
2) Pick a motherboard and memory that offers the best GB/sec sustained transfer rate from the main memory to the CPU that you can budget, and can be adequately cooled by the solution from step 1.  You want at least 4 GB of memory, and preferably a bit more; more than 8 GB isn't going to help current-generation DF any, but might someday. 
3) Pick the best current-generation CPU for single-thread performance under sustained load, that has at least two real cores, while cooled by 1), that is compatible with the motherboard and memory from 2), and that fits your budget.  (While DF is single core, you want at least one more, so that the OS and so on doesn't cut into DF's time.) 
4) Give it a good power supply with a high efficiency rating and enough headroom to handle everything cleanly. 
5) Accessorize with everything else you need; most of the details are of low importance for DF's performance, although considerations like input devices and monitors can be important for the user experience. 
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