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[Scripten]

Jim:

You're right that it wasn't harsh, but that's not the point I'm getting at. The complimenting the playstyle is the issue here, not how much on the raging doucheometer you're at when you respond to people voting you.

You haven't complimented anybody else who was voting for you, so I tried to figure out why. Was it based on your read of the player at the time? Hard to say. You didn't suspect mastahcheese and complimented him. Meanwhile you didn't really suspect zombie urist at the time, but no compliments there. You weakly/moderately suspect Toaster, and also no compliments. You haven't complimented me or Tiruin, so there's that too. Why is mastahcheese special? He flipped scum, so maybe that has something to do with that.

What I don't get here is that you seem to think that I'd willingly buddy my scumbuddy while he's voting me. Were I scum, that would be downright stupid. I'd specifically and intentionally be subverting his alleged attempt to distance himself from me. You're also really letting this whole compliment thing blow up. Let me quote what you're referring to:

Spoiler: "My post" (click to show/hide)

Are you looking for actual scum-tells, or are you looking for incriminating details?

I get what you're saying. You're postulating that I'm trying to fabricate my scumreads. Sure, that's a good way to scumhunt, but I am not doing it. I'm doing what I can to scumhunt and to avoid becoming hung up on trivia/semantics, because I find mislynches happen a lot when town gets distracted by those things.

There's a difference between "This looks scummy" and "I could make this look scummy if I tried"

...Why is this such a difficult concept for you guys?

Like I said above, a good term for this is fabricating scumreads. I disagree that I'm doing it, but I like that you are looking for that sort of thing.

I said that I liked that he was looking for fabricated scumreads. In contrast, ZU's vote on me was -very- weak, Tiruin hasn't actually posted why she's voting me, Toaster's assertion that my votes are weak is wrong and, frankly, I disagree that assertiveness when voting is even alignment-indicative. It's just personality.

You're basically jumping on me because I happened to have an incorrect read on a scum player, on D1, and I said that something they seemed to be doing was good scumhunting practice. (Down further in my post is an example of something similar to this with NQT, whom I later caught!)

Was it how strong or weak you felt the vote was? You had no trouble calling out zombie urist for a weak vote in rather assertive fashion, nor do you have trouble arguing confidently against Toaster and myself. Meanwhile, mastahcheese voted you on a gut feeling and then you go about complimenting his playstyle.

ZU's vote was really weak, though. He basically said "You're voting lurkers ergo scum." Toaster's assertion is pretty weak, and even if he was right, lack of assertiveness and feigned confidence in your own votes isn't inherently a scumtell.

Yes, Mastahcheese flipped scum. He also posted this: "Are you looking for actual scum-tells, or are you looking for incriminating details?" I said that the term for this is fabricating scumreads and that it's a good thing to look for when scumhunting. That is -still true- whether or not mastahcheese is scum or not. I wasn't complimenting his gut read. I specifically said that it wasn't really worth anything.

Further, this is the wrong meta argument. The proper meta argument would have been 'I am occasionally known to compliment players' playstyles as both scum and town and here are instances where that happens.' Instead you present me 'Here's me interacting with a scumbuddy and adequately handling his pressure.'

If anything, you complimenting your voter's playstyle is outside your meta as you've presented it to me, which is even more interesting and even more worth pursuing especially given mastahcheese's alignment.

I thought your assertion was that I didn't know how to react to my scumbuddy voting me. My mistake. This is a kind of specific situation you're talking about, so I really don't have a lot of examples.

- I was town here and Comrade was scumreading me because of word association. He made a good point and I said so, despite the fact that his scumhunting was not particularly strong.

- Scintillant was voting for me here. To be fair, this, like my next example, was a newbie game. I was also trying to teach new players how to scumhunt well, so a lot of my compliments were a part of my IC-text and thus not usable as gameplay meta.

- NQT was actually scum this game. I later caught him, but that doesn't mean that I wasn't townreading him earlier on. I basically told him that his scumgame must be so good that I couldn't figure him out, and I was the -cop- in this game.

What I said is that you didn't quite know how to act. As in, you have a pretty good idea but you're still practicing on getting it completely right and natural-looking. Not that you don't have any idea at all what to do.

This is a little unfair, don't you agree? You're basically saying above that you weren't saying that I didn't know what to do, but that I wasn't known to compliment players or certain actions. I've now provided examples of me doing just that in my town games, as well as an example of me reacting naturally enough in a scum game that I was never even remotely up for a lynch after RVS.

UXLZ:

Shakerag became defeatist and tried to just kill Flabort off. This would be consistent with scum!Shakerag, since a vig and scum can cross-kill.

What does this actually mean?

Which bit?

The first part is saying that Shakerag voted for Flabort because he didn't want to die in the night, instead of actually scumhunting and taking part in the game to show that he was town. The second part is saying that it would make sense for scum!Shakerag to want to use the lynch to kill flabort instead of waiting to use the night kill, because the lynch would verify his safety, while a NK could end up with them killing one another, which is a net gain for the town.

Deus Asmoth:

I'm still voting Tiruin mostly for the fact that she hasn't contributed anything to the game and what she has isn't really much more than fluff. Also, consider that mastahcheese has flipped scum. You're conflating flipped scum having no interaction save for this with a player who hasn't done anything in the game (even when active) and my quote (in this post in my reply to Jim) where I say that looking for fabricated reads is good scumhunting practice. The first has no real basis in anything and is apologetic. The latter is stating a fact about scumhunting.

[Shakerag]

UXLZ:

So did you not feel that there was enough to talk about between D1 and the events so far in D2 that you had to come up with a random topic?

Oh, wait, I think you're mistaken. I didn't roll for the topic, just the person I'd ask Jim his opinion on.

That would seem to imply to me that you didn't really care who you got an opinion on from Jim, but that you needed to ask him a question to fill space.  Why not focus on some concrete aspect of what has happened in the game instead of asking for an opinion on a random player?


Scripten:

Except Jim's assertion was that I "didn't know how to act" in that situation. The meta argument here shows that I know how to act and respond in kind when pressed by a scumbuddy, so his assertion is false.

Ehh, alright.

If you're only using meta reads to support your cases, you're a poor player. The same is true if you don't bother to look at a player's history. You can't say "Oh, you're not capable of handling this as scum" and then throw out evidence that I did just that, much earlier in my mafia career.

Fair enough.

We lynched an anti-town player on D1. We managed to avoid lynching Flabort or Pisskop. So participate and stop trying to make us feel sorry for you. Flabort didn't kill you, and now he can't.

It was dumb luck that we lynched third party on D1.  We don't have confirmation that pissk is town yet either.  And I couldn't give fewer shits whether anyone feels sorry for me or not.

Where have I heard this before?

Do you honestly think I care?

Are you also planning on voting me, Shakerag?

Not presently, but do you want me to change my plans? 

[Persus13]

The last post of mine and this one both are results of a short amount of free time I had between classes and deal with a bunch of weekend stuff I'm working my way through.

Extend We currently have a tie between Scripten and Tiruin and I don't really have a desire for either of them to hang. I'll be on around day end to break the tie if needed, but still, I'd rather see Shakerag hang (tried to lynch flabort despite NQT's advice, attacks on pisskop and UXLZ haves seemed odd to me).


Pisskop:

Do these look like D2reads?

Let's see:

pisskop - Everything pisskop does makes me want to vote him, but by virtue of night actions he maybe isn't scum, maybe? I'm starting to feel like lynching him for being distracting would be a legitimately good idea, and this may be the first time I've actually thought that way.
zombie urist - zombie urist is just kind of there. You make some good points about his voting at the end of Day 1.
Tiruin - I don't have any strong opinion of my own about Tiruin, but I agree with your points that she's been entirely contentless all game long.
Shakerag - Lurking.
Toaster - Also lurking.
UXLZ - Eh
Scripten - Meh
Deus Asmoth - Bleh
Persus13 - Doesn't post frequently but does have good content when he does post.
notquitethere - I'm inclined to think you're town, based on how you were willing to urge people against a flabort lynch on Day 1.
Cheeetar - Cheeetar has been aggressive. He's kind of a hardass sometimes.
Jim Groovester - Of course I'm town.

No.  This is standard scummy lurker fare from a not lurker.
  Literally 1 scum, 1 townie (himself), and the rest are 'meh'.

Its comperable to Tiruin.  Ive scraped gum off my boot that gave more effort than this.

The only reason you don't consider these D2 reads is because he doesn't say if he has a town or scum lean on all the players. It's fairly obvious to me from this post that Jim considers Cheeetar and NQT to be town, and possibly me as well, with everyone else either null, lurking or you. That's 2, maybe 3 players he considers to be town but you believe him to be saying meh on but isn't. One thing you may be ignoring is that this is a list from scummiest to least scummiest. It's far from comparable to Tiruin. Why are the only people you seem to find really suspicious are people who have voted you or Tiruin?

[cough bussing]

@Jim Bison: Thanks for snipping the entirity of my reason for voting so that you can whine about it.
Also thanks for not giving a fuck when the person who posts immediately after you votes the same person.
Your utter lack of even acknoledging it is noted.

More recently: Pisskop: I can't read your mind. If you have something to say, say it.

*Having to wait to answer everything in between because he's busy*

Considering he was not even a little like that with other players, I'd say the affectionate nicknames and prancing is a good sign I'm on the right track.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Can you explain please.

Jim:

Toaster, Persus13, what do you make of this post by Scripten directed mostly towards mastahcheese? What do you make of it in comparison to his response to zombie urist's vote of him?

It is slightly scummy, but right now it's the only thing I really see as scummy about Scripten. I doubt anyone really considered MC to be scum yesterday aside from his Scripten vote, while ZU/Deathsword was seen as scummy by others, so that might explain it, but that's just conjecture until I look back and Scripten's other D1 posts. I do think this is more scummy than the post that's evidence for MC and Tiruin possibly being scumbuddies.

In this post you also asked someone about votes but listed them out of order. Any particular reason behind that?

MC was voting pisskop at Day end yesterday. Since you feel pretty strongly that pisskop is scummy, do you feel that MC would be willing to buss pisskop at day end. Do you think 4maskwolf would pull his gambit in the knowledge that one of his scumbuddies was in the group in order
to give them town credit?

I disagree that I'm doing it, but I like that you are looking for that sort of thing.

Complimenting the playstyle of the person voting you unnerves me, but I don't know enough about how you play to say whether that signifies anything about your alignment.

Found this quote of yours referring to Scripten's response to Mastahcheese in the very first post after Scripten's. Not really sure what to say about it (besides consistency), it just seems relevant to the topic at hand.

Tiruin:

Woo. So net = ded for most of the day, and today was expressively tiring day .-.
Nonetheless meaning that I'm online in the wee hours of the morning x_x

Making up post!

Good, may it be good. And actually have reasoning for your Scripten vote and coherent reads.

[Scripten]

Extend

I'd like to see Tiruin's big post. I'd also like to see what the wagon on me is about.

[pisskop]

No extension.  No need.

Neither wagon is large by any stanards.  We have only half the playerbase voting for the leading wagons.

If you think 3 votes out of the 7 usually required is large . . .

[pisskop]

The only reason you don't consider these D2 reads is because he doesn't say if he has a town or scum lean on all the players. It's fairly obvious to me from this post that Jim considers Cheeetar and NQT to be town, and possibly me as well, with everyone else either null, lurking or you. That's 2, maybe 3 players he considers to be town but you believe him to be saying meh on but isn't. One thing you may be ignoring is that this is a list from scummiest to least scummiest. It's far from comparable to Tiruin. Why are the only people you seem to find really suspicious are people who have voted you or Tiruin?

  Right.  Except he doesn't.  He's giving us rat turds.  Those interpretations are your's, not his.  He hasn't given us anything.  A bunch of implications that fit into one line.
  Look again.  Nowhere does he take a stance on any player.  Nowhere.

pisskop - Everything pisskop does makes me want to vote him, but by virtue of night actions he maybe isn't scum, maybe? I'm starting to feel like lynching him for being distracting would be a legitimately good idea, and this may be the first time I've actually thought that way.
zombie urist - zombie urist is just kind of there. You make some good points about his voting at the end of Day 1.
Tiruin - I don't have any strong opinion of my own about Tiruin, but I agree with your points that she's been entirely contentless all game long.
Shakerag - Lurking.
Toaster - Also lurking.
UXLZ - Eh
Scripten - Meh
Deus Asmoth - Bleh
Persus13 - Doesn't post frequently but does have good content when he does post.
notquitethere - I'm inclined to think you're town, based on how you were willing to urge people against a flabort lynch on Day 1.
Cheeetar - Cheeetar has been aggressive. He's kind of a hardass sometimes.
Jim Groovester - Of course I'm town.

Everything you stated about 'obviously this or that' is your interpretation of it, and is easy to weasel out of should the scum want to target a new player.

  In addition, my suspects included a list larger than those who have ever voted me.  I'm currently voting Shaker, and was suspicious of UX before he started doing whatever he's doing; he is certainly not posting here.  I find UZ lynchable, and I voted you.
  You are trying to mis-present the nature of the case I have on him.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Can you explain please.

Like otherwise stated, masta was looking to distance (I mislabeled it bussing) himself a bit from Jim, using especially nasty language.

This whole time, I've been trying to wrap my head around things, to see who is scummiest. But now there's so many people irritating me, that I'm actually feeling inclined to agree with Jim, of all people.

  And here is more of it.  You are welcome to describe a history between them, but Jim's minimal response indicates himself distancing as well as well as how over-emphasized the nastiness was.  Unwarrented nastiness when all others but his votees were glazed over is a fairly strong indication of scum-scum interaction.

[zombie urist]

Pfp Persus why was Shakerag obligated to follow Nqts advice?

I'll bearound at day end again if anything happens. I also don't thhink an extend is really needed.

[notquitethere]

Shakerag

Pffffbt.  No.  I was all but convinced flabort was going to shoot me, so I stopped caring about the game for real.  I can handle someone making a bullshit case on me.  I can handle someone shooting me in the night for bullshit reasons (although I may still be pissed).  But if you're going to say that you're going to shoot me and there's nothing I can do about it, then there's just no goddamn point to doing anything more.  Especially on D1.

And you didn't think of making a stab at convincing Flabort otherwise? Are you so curmudgeonly that you couldn't fathom talking to someone? I even offered to intercede if you'd make a stab at an effort and you refused that too. It seemed like you were almost actively suicidal. _{Oh no! Someone wants to kill me, better roll over and expose my soft underbelly...}

I mean, seriously.  Assume I died N1.  And pretend I still gave a shit at the end of D1.  Do you really think there's anything I could have come up with that someone later on in the game is going to point back to and use that to clinch a lynch on a scum player?  Fuck no.  We both know that D1 in almost every game consists of running around like a moron and watching half the players glomp on to some numbnuts who either said something dumb or tried some "gambitz".

OK, a lot of D1 is just smoke and mirrors (as Dariush, bless his black soul, once said) but it is possible to lynch scum. I helped pull the lynch away from a townie and onto someone who turned out to be a malicious 3rd party. That's something that isn't just glomping. You could have been a part of that. And if you'd died in the night, you'd still (possibly) have a night action to claim to a medium and (if there was one) you'd be able to contribute reads from beyond the grave. Obviously you don't really care about doing that.

Hell, you want to lynch me for info?  Be my guest.  Even if D1 wasn't a catastrophe for me, I feel like I'm just spinning my wheels trying to get a lead anyway.  You'd be doing me a favor at this point.

My pleasure.


Persus

Persus
Cute testimonials, but how will getting yourself lynched help the town?

You mean pisskop right? Because you have a section of the post addressing me later on, plus this makes no sense addressed to me.

You're absolutely right. I should probably make more of an effort to proof-read my posts.

I'm voting twice in this count.

I should definitely make more of an effort.


Deus

Everyone, can I see the reasons behind your votes?

I'm now voting the Shakerag because his death gives the most information.


ZU

Just because you didn't "actively" advise Flabort to pick an alternative doesn't mean you didn't have in impact in his decision.

OK sure. I probably had an impact. What is your point ZU? What are you trying to intimate?


UXLZ

Everyone: What do you think about Tiruin at the moment?
EBWOP stuff on Tiruin: I'd also like to mention that while supposedly her net prevents her from posting anything substantial, it's worth noting that (unless my forum format is different to hers) you have to load the entire page to even start typing up your post. Also, the quality of one's net doesn't really influence how large the posts you make can be. Even when my internet was borked and running at 10 KBp/s I could still write quite large WoTs without any noticeable issues.

I'm willing to extend the benefit of the doubt that Tiruin's internet may really be worse than usual right now. Still, given that she can post and has no intention of replacing out, it behooves her to make a case. I'm pleased she's taken the barest minimum step and voted someone now.


Jim

Britishism- being mardy, throwing your toys out of the pram

This explains nothing!

Apologies. Should have said he was getting a bit shirty, a tad ratty.

I think between the two I'd consider zombie urist the slightly scummier one.

Noted.


I'll be around at the end of the day to watch out for draws, sudden changes etc. I can't guarantee I'll be able to do this in 24 hours if we extend, so Oppose Extension

[Deus Asmoth]

I'm in favour of an extend. I want to see Tiruin's post before deciding whether to vote for her or not, and Scripten looks town in my book, so I'd rather he didn't get lynched.

PPE: Since a three way tie isn't in our best interest and Shakerag is the least productive member of the game, vote Shakerag.

[Scripten]

If we're all waiting for Tiruin's post, why are you guys opposing an extension? If you don't believe she's going to post it before the end of the day, why are we letting her slide into D3 with the same empty, fluffy play she's been pulling off since D1?

I honestly don't mind a Shakerag lynch, since he's pretty low on the pro-town scale, but I'm just confused about the opposition to extending when we're so close to deadline.

[pisskop]

I oppose it because I doubt it would come otherwise, and I am unwilling to use our final extension for one post.

  Also, we can actively vote against extensions?  Neat-o

OPPOSE EXTENSION

[zombie urist]

So I know you have suspects.

Why are you asking for my vote and not for my suspects?

Still pfp. Because vote implies a suspect and I doubt you have more than 1suspect

[zombie urist]

We get 2 extensions per day

[notquitethere]

Actually, changed my mind. Unoppose extension. I'll make sure I'm around late Wednesday night I guess...

[Toaster]

Scripten:

Who's playing victim?

You.

I'm just mentioning that it's kind of funny how that happened. Are you worried that I'm analyzing votes laid on me?

I certainly hope you do analyze votes on you.  That said, you should also count them too, and don't try to make the false case that a bandwagon is forming on you because two people voted you.

D1 IS a low-content section of the game. Most of the day was consumed with PM shenanigans and the pisskop-flabort fight. (Where flabort ended up being town and fully truthful about his role.)

You can't just take that and write off the entire day.  There's more content there than there is in D2 since D2 has mostly been squabbling abut N1.

Sorry, I don't play the whole self-build-up game like some others do. I report my reads at roughly the level that I feel them. I don't say someone is 100% certainly scum unless I know they are scum. Specifically, look at the second-to-last completed BM game where I was a cop.

Are you saying that you do not have any problem with my scumhunting?

There's a wide difference between not being sure someone is scum and acting like you're scared to vote.

Again, read what I said.  I said I have a problem with the way you're going about presenting your "conclusions" in your posts.  I use quotation marks there because they're anything but conclusive; which is what attracted my vote.

There's a wide difference between being assertive (good) and being an asshole (bad).  You've been wimpy (bad in the other direction.)  If you can't convince someone you're serious in your attack, then you're not going to get taken seriously.  If you're not being taken seriously, then you're not going to get results.

That, or you're leaving yourself a place to backpedal when your "suspicions" flip town.

Tell me where I've backpedaled and this might have some merit. I have no qualms mentioning who I wanted lynched yesterday: Tiruin, Toonyman, and TDS. (Possibly Deathsword/ZU, but that slot got replaced.) Two of these have flipped, and Toonyman was town. You're essentially scumreading me for something I could have done rather than what I am doing.

I bolded what I said; I said you're leaving yourself room to backpedal, not that you are doing it.  Don't twist my words.

You complain about me being toothless, but you're doing exactly the same thing as I, while simultaneously not voting Tiruin. I think she's scum and I highly doubt the post she has coming will have any content to it at all. (I will be carefully watching where and how your vote goes around her today, just so you know.) I was edging that way on D1, but the wagon was going nowhere because of that stupid gambit/PM kerfuffle that had next to no actual content in it.

This is a lie.  I am not being wishy-washy about my targets.  I quite clearly called Flabort scum, and now I'm calling you lying word-twisting scum, who was previously skittish afraid to commit scum.  You got called out, and out come your teeth.

Also, everything you said about Tiruin is irrelevant here.

Facts checked. Did you expect people to miss the fact that the reply you quoted here was posted in response to Flabort and not myself?

No.  I try to be very clear about who I am addressing by bolding their name in front of the respective section.

I said that I liked that he was looking for fabricated scumreads. In contrast, ZU's vote on me was -very- weak, Tiruin hasn't actually posted why she's voting me, Toaster's assertion that my votes are weak is wrong and, frankly, I disagree that assertiveness when voting is even alignment-indicative. It's just personality.

Oh, no, there's bits to be found there.  If you won't stand behind your vote, then that is something to watch.

I'd like to see Tiruin's big post. I'd also like to see what the wagon on me is about.

Still playing the victim, I see.


Jim:

Toaster, you missed my question.

I sure did!

Uh... not much?  He's obviously not threatened by the vote, but it could be because it was the only one on him at the time, nor was it pursued aggressively.  His ZU response was almost sarcastic.


NQT:

One for you, though.  Let's assume for a second that Tiruin comes up with a case on someone that's satisfactory to you.  Who would you be voting then?  Is your desire to see Shakerag's flip for the associative tells high enough that you would hang him for it?

Yep 100% Shakerag murder for the info.

Huh... interesting.  Ignoring that for a second, who are your top two scumpicks and why?

(as Dariush, bless his black soul, once said)

I miss that grumpy ol' goat.

Apologies. Should have said he was getting a bit shirty, a tad ratty.

Downright stroppy, even.


UXLZ:

Oh, wait, I think you're mistaken. I didn't roll for the topic, just the person I'd ask Jim his opinion on.

Rolling for anything in a Mafia game is really weird.  Maybe RVS, I guess, but under no circumstance would I advertise it.

Everyone: What do you think about Tiruin at the moment?

The longer she goes without presenting a case, the scummier she is.  Getting within seven hours of D2 end without actually attacking anyone (and only voting under duress) is almost Org-like levels of audacity.  Believing she can't string together the connectivity and time to write out five lines on why she voted the way she did- even without linking evidence- is becoming more and more of a stretch.  I mean, I sympathize with IRL trouble- I said before the game started that I'd be limited posting this game- but damn.


Persus:

Pfp Persus why was Shakerag obligated to follow Nqts advice?

I second this question.