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[TheDarkStar]

TDS

A personal shield to avoid dying.

Reasonable enough for most of the alien wincons. What do you think of the recent Flabort/4mask exchange?

Flabort acted scummy in telling everyone about the gambit.

You never said you didn't want me to talk about it, you even included a line labeled "For quoting purposes". The other two participants can back me up on that if they want.
You also said it would only work to the end of night 1, but you never said that mentioning the PMs would reveal anything; you mentioned something else that would reveal if one of the participants were scum.

Notice I only said that there was a gambit going on. I never said the other two participant's names, I never said what your gambit was, or who said "OK, now you're acting weird".

Since you decided to neglect those details and form such a foggy plan (If A then one of XYZ are scum, if B than I don't know), it's clear you didn't expect it to succeed in the first place, and expected someone to spit a frog out of their mouth. You then pounced immediately on said person, devouring them for their 'mistake'.

The plan might have uncertainties, but it's certainly a method for finding scum. Why don't you want 4maskwolf finding scum?


I've read up through page 10; I'll have other responses and questions later.

Now I'm reading more I've read more. My vote stays with flabort, both for reasons that have been mentioned and my own ones that I've detailed below.

Toaster:

How should people deal with anti-town behavior that isn't tied to "scum motivation?"

Think of it like this: Mafia is a game based around reverse engineering other players' interactions/reactions. You look at what they say and do and try to pull back the layers of their playstyle/personality and see the motivation behind the actions. There's a cadre of players, across all the places I've played, that have a sort of checkbox-based scumhunting method that looks for and tries to quantify tells and then they push cases based on these tells without really looking at why a scum player would do something or other. If the action doesn't have scum motivation behind it, even if it falls under the technical definition of a tell, it's possible that the player may not be scum for it.

In this case, I see what Flabort did as anti-town. There's certainly a problem here, but town players do anti-town things all the time and often get mislynched for it. (Mislynches hurt the town almost without exception. The idea that a town player should be lynched for doing "stupid" things is farcical.) Scum, especially good scum, try to stick to the shadows and keep attention off of them. (Part of that is active lurking, as I'm sure you know.) There's no reason I can see why scum!Flabort would do what he did. I can somewhat see potential, if misguided, town motivation behind his play. Of course, I may be wrong and may have missed something.

Deus Asmoth:

Scripten, I can't help but think that's debatable. By revealing the gambit- and more importantly, the role Mask claimed- flabort guaranteed that everyone knew Mask's claim while under the guise of helping the town by revealing information. The way he went about revealing the information doesn't make it feel town orientated to me at all.

Sure, it's anti-town. Like I said above, though, town players do anti-town stuff all the time. Scum!Flabort has a private chat with his scumbuddies where he could reveal 4maskwolf's role and get him NK'd and out of the game. I don't see the scum motivation behind Flabort revealing 4maskwolf, unless you're postulating that he made the reveal to get towncred?
[/quote

There might be problems that occur if you assume that flabort is a dopp, but remember that there are lots of evil third-parties here that would have no issues with outing town power roles.

TheDarkStar:

TDS

A personal shield to avoid dying.

Reasonable enough for most of the alien wincons. What do you think of the recent Flabort/4mask exchange?

Flabort acted scummy in telling everyone about the gambit.

You never said you didn't want me to talk about it, you even included a line labeled "For quoting purposes". The other two participants can back me up on that if they want.
You also said it would only work to the end of night 1, but you never said that mentioning the PMs would reveal anything; you mentioned something else that would reveal if one of the participants were scum.

Notice I only said that there was a gambit going on. I never said the other two participant's names, I never said what your gambit was, or who said "OK, now you're acting weird".

Since you decided to neglect those details and form such a foggy plan (If A then one of XYZ are scum, if B than I don't know), it's clear you didn't expect it to succeed in the first place, and expected someone to spit a frog out of their mouth. You then pounced immediately on said person, devouring them for their 'mistake'.

The plan might have uncertainties, but it's certainly a method for finding scum. Why don't you want 4maskwolf finding scum?

It finds scum how? Also, flabort didn't reveal the gambit until after flabort attacked him for ruining it. This is easily the weakest vote I've seen so far on Flabort. Plesase put more content in your vote on flabort, and explain why this post was so short and skimpy.

4mask had a strategy for finding scum. Flabort, knowing about it, decided to destroy the plan. He said that he wasn't worried about the plan causing any danger to himself iirc, but he still told everyone about it (and outed an investigative role). If that won't send a scumkill straight at 4mask/pisskop, I don't know what will (because flabort could always be evil third-party). Even if flabort was a dopp, it still destroyed 4mask's scumhunting efforts.

@Pisskop
Wouldn't Vigilante actually be quite hard to fakeclaim due to its relatively unique flavor text? (At least, I think it's relatively unique.)
I mean, someone who has fakeclaimed Vigilante could say 'reporter follow me, watch my kill,' but if that actually happens, the kill flavor text won't match.
Unless its flavor text isn't as unique as I thought.

The killer claiming vig can just not shoot anyone (or not claim it) or claim that he hit immune/healed people every night. The flavor kill results barely make scumteam killer any more difficult to claim.

pfp want to get to more stable environment before responding in full.

But it was an accident at first, I didn't realize that those were the only PMs so far, and when 4mask completely blew up over it I decided to see just how far I could push him.

Also, I'm a human vigilante and was planning to poke a hole in his gambit anyways. Revealing it instead of killing him serves my purposes and allows me to target someone else.
Now I've revealed too. 4mask, what do you say to that?

Why did you want to kill him for his gambit? Also, why are you blaming 4mask for outing your role? Both of these are really scummy - killing scumhunters and pushing blame on others.

PPE: 15 new replies; stop posting so fast!

[TheDarkStar]

TDS

A personal shield to avoid dying.

Reasonable enough for most of the alien wincons. What do you think of the recent Flabort/4mask exchange?

Flabort acted scummy in telling everyone about the gambit.

You never said you didn't want me to talk about it, you even included a line labeled "For quoting purposes". The other two participants can back me up on that if they want.
You also said it would only work to the end of night 1, but you never said that mentioning the PMs would reveal anything; you mentioned something else that would reveal if one of the participants were scum.

Notice I only said that there was a gambit going on. I never said the other two participant's names, I never said what your gambit was, or who said "OK, now you're acting weird".

Since you decided to neglect those details and form such a foggy plan (If A then one of XYZ are scum, if B than I don't know), it's clear you didn't expect it to succeed in the first place, and expected someone to spit a frog out of their mouth. You then pounced immediately on said person, devouring them for their 'mistake'.

The plan might have uncertainties, but it's certainly a method for finding scum. Why don't you want 4maskwolf finding scum?


I've read up through page 10; I'll have other responses and questions later.

Now I'm reading more I've read more. My vote stays with flabort, both for reasons that have been mentioned and my own ones that I've detailed below.

Toaster:

How should people deal with anti-town behavior that isn't tied to "scum motivation?"

Think of it like this: Mafia is a game based around reverse engineering other players' interactions/reactions. You look at what they say and do and try to pull back the layers of their playstyle/personality and see the motivation behind the actions. There's a cadre of players, across all the places I've played, that have a sort of checkbox-based scumhunting method that looks for and tries to quantify tells and then they push cases based on these tells without really looking at why a scum player would do something or other. If the action doesn't have scum motivation behind it, even if it falls under the technical definition of a tell, it's possible that the player may not be scum for it.

In this case, I see what Flabort did as anti-town. There's certainly a problem here, but town players do anti-town things all the time and often get mislynched for it. (Mislynches hurt the town almost without exception. The idea that a town player should be lynched for doing "stupid" things is farcical.) Scum, especially good scum, try to stick to the shadows and keep attention off of them. (Part of that is active lurking, as I'm sure you know.) There's no reason I can see why scum!Flabort would do what he did. I can somewhat see potential, if misguided, town motivation behind his play. Of course, I may be wrong and may have missed something.

Deus Asmoth:

Scripten, I can't help but think that's debatable. By revealing the gambit- and more importantly, the role Mask claimed- flabort guaranteed that everyone knew Mask's claim while under the guise of helping the town by revealing information. The way he went about revealing the information doesn't make it feel town orientated to me at all.

Sure, it's anti-town. Like I said above, though, town players do anti-town stuff all the time. Scum!Flabort has a private chat with his scumbuddies where he could reveal 4maskwolf's role and get him NK'd and out of the game. I don't see the scum motivation behind Flabort revealing 4maskwolf, unless you're postulating that he made the reveal to get towncred?

There might be problems that occur if you assume that flabort is a dopp, but remember that there are lots of evil third-parties here that would have no issues with outing town power roles.

TheDarkStar:

TDS

A personal shield to avoid dying.

Reasonable enough for most of the alien wincons. What do you think of the recent Flabort/4mask exchange?

Flabort acted scummy in telling everyone about the gambit.

You never said you didn't want me to talk about it, you even included a line labeled "For quoting purposes". The other two participants can back me up on that if they want.
You also said it would only work to the end of night 1, but you never said that mentioning the PMs would reveal anything; you mentioned something else that would reveal if one of the participants were scum.

Notice I only said that there was a gambit going on. I never said the other two participant's names, I never said what your gambit was, or who said "OK, now you're acting weird".

Since you decided to neglect those details and form such a foggy plan (If A then one of XYZ are scum, if B than I don't know), it's clear you didn't expect it to succeed in the first place, and expected someone to spit a frog out of their mouth. You then pounced immediately on said person, devouring them for their 'mistake'.

The plan might have uncertainties, but it's certainly a method for finding scum. Why don't you want 4maskwolf finding scum?

It finds scum how? Also, flabort didn't reveal the gambit until after flabort attacked him for ruining it. This is easily the weakest vote I've seen so far on Flabort. Plesase put more content in your vote on flabort, and explain why this post was so short and skimpy.

4mask had a strategy for finding scum. Flabort, knowing about it, decided to destroy the plan. He said that he wasn't worried about the plan causing any danger to himself iirc, but he still told everyone about it (and outed an investigative role). If that won't send a scumkill straight at 4mask/pisskop, I don't know what will (because flabort could always be evil third-party). Even if flabort was a dopp, it still destroyed 4mask's scumhunting efforts.

@Pisskop
Wouldn't Vigilante actually be quite hard to fakeclaim due to its relatively unique flavor text? (At least, I think it's relatively unique.)
I mean, someone who has fakeclaimed Vigilante could say 'reporter follow me, watch my kill,' but if that actually happens, the kill flavor text won't match.
Unless its flavor text isn't as unique as I thought.

The killer claiming vig can just not shoot anyone (or not claim it) or claim that he hit immune/healed people every night. The flavor kill results barely make scumteam killer any more difficult to claim.

pfp want to get to more stable environment before responding in full.

But it was an accident at first, I didn't realize that those were the only PMs so far, and when 4mask completely blew up over it I decided to see just how far I could push him.

Also, I'm a human vigilante and was planning to poke a hole in his gambit anyways. Revealing it instead of killing him serves my purposes and allows me to target someone else.
Now I've revealed too. 4mask, what do you say to that?

Why did you want to kill him for his gambit? Also, why are you blaming 4mask for outing your role? Both of these are really scummy - killing scumhunters and pushing blame on others.

PPE: 15 new replies; stop posting so fast!


EBWOP to fix add in the bracket that I missed.

[Scripten]

Hmm... Those are all very good points, TDS. I had been working from a town/scum standpoint without as much consideration for all the third parties that may exist.

Unvote TheDarkStar

Going to look over things and take a minute to get my head around current events and figure out where I want to lay my vote.

[Mephansteras]

The Whiteboard
pisskop: Deathsword, Shakerag, flabort
UXLZ: pisskop
flabort: Cheeetar, Deus Asmoth, Persus13, TheDarkStar, Toaster
mastahcheese: ToonyMan


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Tomorrow

[Tiruin]

Err, could I ask why people are voting Flabort again--as a summary? Sure, he claimed human vigilante: What does that entail, if that's the reason for your vote? (ie How I read your vote, Cheeetar). To me, it seems like a lynch on...what may either be a sincere claim (for...some reason), or a fakeclaim (being very...robust? Courageous? The term escapes me...), disregarding the ' emotional' factor

@Pisskop: You moved yer vote to UXLZ: What made you do so from point b?

@TDS: Note on Flabort, you vote him after being asked by NQT? Query on why then, and not before? While it seems more like a pressure vote to me...*looks up*, the time is ending at 5pm today...(unless I totally got my inner timezone conversion wrong)

@Persus: On this, is there anything pro-scum which overrides any notion of being pro-town/neutral regarding the 'gambit' presented?

[Cheeetar]

Tiruin: From the moment he received 4maskwolf's PM, he wanted to reveal it. He practically begged people to inquire about what PMs were being sent, and we did. Once we did, he said, very coyly, 'it might've been 4maskwolf you know?'. He fluttered his eyelashes, and finally we asked what the PM was about, at which point he revealed everything except the role 4maskwolf had. And then he revealed that as well, a bit later. It's a very slow, drawn out reveal of information- the kind of thing scum would do when they weren't sure of how much to say, rather than a townie. Add in to that his very panicked reactions to the initial pressure from 4maskwolf (for example, near immediately claiming human vigilante) and it's hard to not see him as scum or malicious third party.

Also, he later framed his revealing as 'accidental' which seemed like a baldfaced lie.

My own reads: (Lurkertracker won't load, so I have to do this manually. >:I )
Cheetar: Asking plenty of questions. Inquiring on things a lot (particularly the gambit, which is expected.) Overall, lean Cheeetar. It feels like his usual play.
notquitethere: I suspect they're collecting vast archives of data right now. They don't really stick out that much, but the majority of NQT's play comes from after N1, so I'm expecting more then.
pisskop: Just replaced in from 4mask's gambit thing. Null read for right now because of complications. Nevermind. Shakerag tells you to not answer his questions with another question, and you do it again. And you're asking how UXLZ knew 4mask was a PR, when it was mentioned in the PM that's been quoted maybe 4 times now, and confirmed that the PM was legit by other people that got it (Since I was one of those people, I can confirm this now.) You even said you got those PMs!
Jim Groovester: I can never frelling tell what Jim's up to. Lean Jimbot.
TheDarkStar: Early on in the day, I kept forgetting he was playing. And then with the vote with pretty much nothing to back it up... People have already stated all this, though. I... really think that this is more scummy than 4mask's gambit, or flabort's claim of it. From both of their cases, I can see reason why town or third parties might do what they did. But placing a bandwagon vote with no reason of your own is just a flat scumtell, which is the best we've really had so far (from my point of view, at least.) So Vote TheDarkStar Well, new things are turning up now.
Persus13: I keep forgetting you're playing. I look back, and see you post plenty, but I keep forgetting you.
Shakerag: He's around. Doesn't stick out much, but he's around. Ok, just read the latest posts. Hmm.
ToonyMan: Not really posting a whole lot. Meh.
Deus Asmoth: He's questioning and counter-questioning things. Although he seems kinda focused on the gambit, so I don't really know what to make of that.
flabort: Being blatantly obvious about receiving the PMs from 4mask. Not wanting to disclose specifics about it, while still showing that it happened. Claims it was an accident. From a scum perspective, he seems to be trying to incriminate 4mask, and is doing a very bad job of it. From a town perspective, he seems to be doing a very bad job of accusing 4mask of being scum. In either case, this is not his best play I've seen from him. Trying to think of it from a third party perspective, I'm not really sure what could be happening. Unless he's actually playing brilliantly well as a spore spreader, I dunno. Honestly, I kinda get the feeling that he's more likely to be a third party than scum. Because all I can see from both a town viewpoint and a scum viewpoint is that he's playing badly. From a third party viewpoint, there's actually some possibilities that he knows what he's doing. I very wary of this.
UXLZ: Seems really over-conscience of something at some points, particularly early on. Maybe third party? Definitely not vanilla, in any case.
Scripten: When the reveal of the gambit came out, he actually wanted to know more of it from the viewpoint of the people less-involved (being me and DA) I like this, he's not being narrow-minded. Lean town for now.
Tiruin: Still trying to read through the thread. Nothing leans one way or another for me on her yet.
Deathsword: Not really here much. Trying to catch up, from what I can tell.
Toaster: Asking a lot of questions. Questioning why people aren't voting. Hmm.... I dunno. The things he's doing are very town-like, but I get a weird feeling? Like maybe he's trying to instigate conversations, without being the main one involved in them. I don't know where I'm getting this feeling from. I hope he's not an alien.

Let's see:
3: 'their alignment is themselves!' or just commenting on the player being the player, not anything about alignment (Cheeetar, Jim, NQT)
2: 'Could be town but also could be not town' (Toaster, Deus Asmoth)
5: 'iunno' (Deathsword, Tiruin, ToonyMan, Shakerag, Persus13)
3: Suspecting the easiest targets (Pisskop, Flabort, TheDarkStar)
1: Town (Scripten)
1: Third party (UXLZ)

This adds up to 10 null reads, 3 bandwagoning reads (albeit very hesitant ones where you don't vote for anybody), and two 'actual reads'. What's the big idea, Mastahcheese?

The only other interesting thing I want to point out is that certain people love FoS'ing TheDarkStar, which seems lazy.
4maskwolf on Jan 21st at 8:43pm
Persus13 on Jan 22nd at 3:54am
Mastahcheese on Jan 2nd at 4:58pm

DarkStar was the guy who is getting the most flack for jumping on the Flabort lynch train, so I'm going to go a step further and say you three are taking easy bait that's taking easy bait.

You missed my FoS, quit being lazy.

[pisskop]

hmm?  No I meant to

unvote UXLZ
 
After his address of my accusations I'm more comfortable with him.  I guess I though the blued names meant unvotes   I'm much more used to just using bolded text.

I am curious about the general lack of posting from several people, but its hard to call them out for it when I don't know their playstyle.  If 4 pods fell, I'm expecting 3 and 1 instead of 4..

[UXLZ]

Nah, the blue votes are Fingers of Suspicion. They're basically for when you haven't quite reached voting stage but are suspicious, or already have your vote tied up on someone else. If you haven't figured this out already.

[pisskop]

Okay.  Just keep in mind that if the only requirement for a whisper is the GMs notice than scumteam(s) are surely talking amoungst themselves.

[UXLZ]

I'm pretty sure the scum get their own chat on quicktopic or something similar. That's how it was for my BM game. Unless that was just because the BM game had no PMs allowed.

at which point he revealed everything except the role 4maskwolf had. And then he revealed that as well, a bit later.

I'm still curious as to what his supposedly forgotten reason for initially not revealing 4mask's role was.

Cheeetar: Do you think it's likely for someone to forget something after 20 minutes? What's your take on that?

Flabort seems to have a few problems going on for him irl at the moment, so that's a fair possibility.

[Cheeetar]

It's possible he had a reason while drafting it, and drafting took a while. Honestly, there are more concrete reasons to believe that he's scum than his fallible memory.

[UXLZ]

Ah, yes, I failed to take into consideration drafting time.

[Deus Asmoth]

Sorry I haven't been active much today, things just got a bit hectic. On the plus side, I now get money for doing my job!

Two things that I see on this page, then I'll have to go catch up on what's been going on.

Tiruin: my vote is on flabort because of the way he went about revealing Mask's gambit, and the way that his motivations seem to change every time he posts.

Pisskop,: by three and one do you mean three scum and a rogue dopp, or am I misreading that?

[pisskop]

I'm more inclined to believe that there are two or more anti-town groups than 1 group of 4.

[UXLZ]

I'm more inclined to believe that there are two or more anti-town groups than 1 group of 4.

There may be more anti-town groups than just the dopps (like the Exty), but I'm pretty sure there are 4 dopps. The flavor at the start mentions 4 eggs. (Unless it's possible for there to be 3 doppels and 1 rogue doppel?)

Actually...

Meph:

Do Rogue doppels subtract from the required number of 'normal' doppels in a game? Is it possible for there to be (for instance) 2 normal doppels and 2 rogue ones in a 16 player game? Or will there always be 4?