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[Mephansteras]

The Whiteboard
pisskop: flabort
TheDarkStar: Scripten
flabort: pisskop, Cheeetar, Deus Asmoth, Persus13, TheDarkStar, Toaster
mastahcheese: ToonyMan


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Friday


pisskop has replaced in for 4maskwolf

Meph, will 4mask's replacement be able to see all the PMs from his gambit or would they have to be forwarded on by another player?

I have made that option available to him, but he may wish to start fresh.

[Scripten]

Toaster:

How should people deal with anti-town behavior that isn't tied to "scum motivation?"

Think of it like this: Mafia is a game based around reverse engineering other players' interactions/reactions. You look at what they say and do and try to pull back the layers of their playstyle/personality and see the motivation behind the actions. There's a cadre of players, across all the places I've played, that have a sort of checkbox-based scumhunting method that looks for and tries to quantify tells and then they push cases based on these tells without really looking at why a scum player would do something or other. If the action doesn't have scum motivation behind it, even if it falls under the technical definition of a tell, it's possible that the player may not be scum for it.

In this case, I see what Flabort did as anti-town. There's certainly a problem here, but town players do anti-town things all the time and often get mislynched for it. (Mislynches hurt the town almost without exception. The idea that a town player should be lynched for doing "stupid" things is farcical.) Scum, especially good scum, try to stick to the shadows and keep attention off of them. (Part of that is active lurking, as I'm sure you know.) There's no reason I can see why scum!Flabort would do what he did. I can somewhat see potential, if misguided, town motivation behind his play. Of course, I may be wrong and may have missed something.

Deus Asmoth:

Scripten, I can't help but think that's debatable. By revealing the gambit- and more importantly, the role Mask claimed- flabort guaranteed that everyone knew Mask's claim while under the guise of helping the town by revealing information. The way he went about revealing the information doesn't make it feel town orientated to me at all.

Sure, it's anti-town. Like I said above, though, town players do anti-town stuff all the time. Scum!Flabort has a private chat with his scumbuddies where he could reveal 4maskwolf's role and get him NK'd and out of the game. I don't see the scum motivation behind Flabort revealing 4maskwolf, unless you're postulating that he made the reveal to get towncred?

[pisskop]

Hello.  I just received my pm.  There are 3 ways for me to move on from here:

  -Lynch me.
  -Convince you to forget what we saw.
  -agree that 4mask towned his role up and down.

I was watching, but didn't start logging everything and want to reread everything before giving out reads.  Flabort especially.  Whether by coincidence or not, I sided with 4mask in the early stages of the game over flabort.  But its worth rereading now that the night has passed.  But lest we forget that vigilante is one of the easiest roles to fakeclaim.

[pisskop]

As a note, I got all the correspondence that 4mask had.

[UXLZ]

Sure, it's anti-town. Like I said above, though, town players do anti-town stuff all the time. Scum!Flabort has a private chat with his scumbuddies where he could reveal 4maskwolf's role and get him NK'd and out of the game. I don't see the scum motivation behind Flabort revealing 4maskwolf, unless you're postulating that he made the reveal to get towncred?

Thought I'd comment on this as when the PMs were first revealed I was thinking about what motivation Flabort may have had for revealing it. I also can't really think of any reason for scum!Flabort revealing it outside of hoping to get towncred because the gambit (at least, the proposed gambit outlined in the PM) was ill-designed enough that it really wouldn't have had any effect if 4mask just got killed anyway. It seemed to assume that without the gambit he wasn't going to be attacked. (That is, confusing correlation with causation.)

I don't think the reveal of the gambit itself could have done any damage, but the subsequent role reveals almost certainly will. 4mask's role being put out in the open is partially my fault, if I'm honest. Unless Flabort was intending to bait people into asking about the omitted role so he could reveal it 'innocently', but that just seems like a pointlessly roundabout way of doing so.

Spoiler: Evidence (click to show/hide)

And welcome to my first ridiculous gambit of this game.

I am a <Snip>

Why am I telling you this?

Statistically, there is a fairly high chance that two of you three are not-mafia.  Hell, maybe even all three of you, if I'm lucky.  But that's not the point.

The point is, I'm setting up an interesting conundrum if there is a scum here.  You can kill me or have one of your scumbuddies kill me, but there is a higher likelihood then that one of the people in this conversation is scum.  Thus, you will risk outing yourself by killing me.  The other option is that you don't kill me, thus leaving a known investigative role alive and able to find out who you are.

For quoting purposes, the three people in this conversation are: <Snip>, <snip>, and flabort.

4maskwolf out.

some small snips to protect the identities of the other two

And also to hide Wolf's role. Not really worth mentioning, just surprised you didn't say it there.

Oh, yeah. He claimed Human Reporter. I forgot that I snipped that too, and forgot why.

Have you managed to remember why you snipped his role originally?
I find it somewhat odd that you forgot why only (unless I'm screwing up the timeline) ~23 minutes afterwards.

@Pisskop
Wouldn't Vigilante actually be quite hard to fakeclaim due to its relatively unique flavor text? (At least, I think it's relatively unique.)
I mean, someone who has fakeclaimed Vigilante could say 'reporter follow me, watch my kill,' but if that actually happens, the kill flavor text won't match.
Unless its flavor text isn't as unique as I thought.

[Deus Asmoth]

Scripten, revealing information is generally seen as pro town, and the fact that flabort didn't reveal the role mask had claimed until a later post just made me feel like he was trying to get towncred for revealing the gambit while also being in a position where he could claim that being one of the three people that knew of mask's role wasn't incriminating because everyone knew about it.

pisskop: Hi there.

[Shakerag]

pisskop:

Hello.  I just received my pm.  There are 3 ways for me to move on from here:

  -Lynch me.

Why would you bring this up when you've only got one vote on you? 

[Scripten]

Scripten, revealing information is generally seen as pro town, and the fact that flabort didn't reveal the role mask had claimed until a later post just made me feel like he was trying to get towncred for revealing the gambit while also being in a position where he could claim that being one of the three people that knew of mask's role wasn't incriminating because everyone knew about it.

Eh, fair enough. I disagree, but I can see where you are coming from.

Since there's been some discussion recently, I'm curious about where you stand now. Do you think that revealing the gambit was pro-town? How about when Flabort claimed his own role?

[pisskop]

@Pisskop
Wouldn't Vigilante actually be quite hard to fakeclaim due to its relatively unique flavor text? (At least, I think it's relatively unique.)
I mean, someone who has fakeclaimed Vigilante could say 'reporter follow me, watch my kill,' but if that actually happens, the kill flavor text won't match.
Unless its flavor text isn't as unique as I thought.

Flabort

1) Didn't post his pm
2) If they are unique than one could lie about theirs.  If they aren't then he could replicate it.  meh.
3) besides having no way to confirm his role, we don't know his alignment.

pisskop: Hi there.

Hello.  Say, you got 4wolf's gambit pm.  What did you think of it?

pisskop:

Hello.  I just received my pm.  There are 3 ways for me to move on from here:

  -Lynch me.

Why would you bring this up when you've only got one vote on you? 

Originally I wasn't going to bring any options up.  Then 1.  Then more.
  The real question is, why wouldn't I bring it up?

[Deus Asmoth]

Scripten:Like I said, I would've been more inclined to let the gambit run its course. Mask said it'd be done by day two, so even if it had been a plot to kill one of us there were still two others that could reveal it the next day. If flabort had just revealed there was a gambit going on to everyone, I'd have believed he was town, but they way he claims it was an accident and then went ahead with it anyway and the he claims to have thought there would have been a lot of PMs so early in the game... It just feels underhanded to me.

I'm not sure what to make of the roleclaim. From a town perspective, even if people trust him and decide to lynch him, the scumteam now know we have a claimed reporter and vigilante and he's split the focus of any guardian roles we may have. From a scum perspective, I guess it's a better choice than accepting the lynch, but with 24 hours left in the day it would have been a better idea to spend the day trying to redirect the lynch and only fakeclaim as a last resort. The phrasing of the reveal, like he was doing it just to prove a point to Mask, could be used to support either position but it gives me the impression that he knew he didn't have anything to fear from the scum team at night. Overall I'm more inclined to believe that it came from a scum mindset than a town mindset.

pisskop: I initially thought that he was scum fishing for town guarding roles, but the fact that he didn't want to be guarded while the gambit was going on made me want to at least see its conclusion. Him and flabort's disagreement could have just been bussing I guess, but that seems very unlikely on day 1.

[Shakerag]

pisskop:

pisskop:

Hello.  I just received my pm.  There are 3 ways for me to move on from here:

  -Lynch me.

Why would you bring this up when you've only got one vote on you? 

Originally I wasn't going to bring any options up.  Then 1.  Then more.
  The real question is, why wouldn't I bring it up?

Don't answer my question with another question.

What made you think that offering yourself as a lynch target was a good idea?

[pisskop]

pshh.  What made you think Im offering myself?

[pisskop]

UXLZ:  How long have you been playing?

And also to hide Wolf's role. Not really worth mentioning, just surprised you didn't say it there.

Please explain this.  Why were you aware 4mask had a powerrole?

[mastahcheese]

I am so confused. Still.

Alright, I really want to clear my head of the whole gambitz thing, because it's making my head hurt.
I'd like to see people's reads so far

My own reads: (Lurkertracker won't load, so I have to do this manually. >:I )
Cheetar: Asking plenty of questions. Inquiring on things a lot (particularly the gambit, which is expected.) Overall, lean Cheeetar. It feels like his usual play.
notquitethere: I suspect they're collecting vast archives of data right now. They don't really stick out that much, but the majority of NQT's play comes from after N1, so I'm expecting more then.
pisskop: Just replaced in from 4mask's gambit thing. Null read for right now because of complications. Nevermind. Shakerag tells you to not answer his questions with another question, and you do it again. And you're asking how UXLZ knew 4mask was a PR, when it was mentioned in the PM that's been quoted maybe 4 times now, and confirmed that the PM was legit by other people that got it (Since I was one of those people, I can confirm this now.) You even said you got those PMs!
Jim Groovester: I can never frelling tell what Jim's up to. Lean Jimbot.
TheDarkStar: Early on in the day, I kept forgetting he was playing. And then with the vote with pretty much nothing to back it up... People have already stated all this, though. I... really think that this is more scummy than 4mask's gambit, or flabort's claim of it. From both of their cases, I can see reason why town or third parties might do what they did. But placing a bandwagon vote with no reason of your own is just a flat scumtell, which is the best we've really had so far (from my point of view, at least.) So Vote TheDarkStar Well, new things are turning up now.
Persus13: I keep forgetting you're playing. I look back, and see you post plenty, but I keep forgetting you.
Shakerag: He's around. Doesn't stick out much, but he's around. Ok, just read the latest posts. Hmm.
ToonyMan: Not really posting a whole lot. Meh.
Deus Asmoth: He's questioning and counter-questioning things. Although he seems kinda focused on the gambit, so I don't really know what to make of that.
flabort: Being blatantly obvious about receiving the PMs from 4mask. Not wanting to disclose specifics about it, while still showing that it happened. Claims it was an accident. From a scum perspective, he seems to be trying to incriminate 4mask, and is doing a very bad job of it. From a town perspective, he seems to be doing a very bad job of accusing 4mask of being scum. In either case, this is not his best play I've seen from him. Trying to think of it from a third party perspective, I'm not really sure what could be happening. Unless he's actually playing brilliantly well as a spore spreader, I dunno. Honestly, I kinda get the feeling that he's more likely to be a third party than scum. Because all I can see from both a town viewpoint and a scum viewpoint is that he's playing badly. From a third party viewpoint, there's actually some possibilities that he knows what he's doing. I very wary of this.
UXLZ: Seems really over-conscience of something at some points, particularly early on. Maybe third party? Definitely not vanilla, in any case.
Scripten: When the reveal of the gambit came out, he actually wanted to know more of it from the viewpoint of the people less-involved (being me and DA) I like this, he's not being narrow-minded. Lean town for now.
Tiruin: Still trying to read through the thread. Nothing leans one way or another for me on her yet.
Deathsword: Not really here much. Trying to catch up, from what I can tell.
Toaster: Asking a lot of questions. Questioning why people aren't voting. Hmm.... I dunno. The things he's doing are very town-like, but I get a weird feeling? Like maybe he's trying to instigate conversations, without being the main one involved in them. I don't know where I'm getting this feeling from. I hope he's not an alien.

[Shakerag]

pshh.  What made you think Im offering myself?

... you suggested yourself getting lynched as an option for you "to move on from here".