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Author Topic: Paranormal 24 - Game over! Doppelganger Victory!  (Read 218715 times)

Jim Groovester

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Re: Paranormal 24 - Day 3 eats Psychics for breakfast
« Reply #1305 on: February 16, 2015, 01:09:47 am »

It occurred to me that Shakerag never claimed he had an additional tracking device nor did anybody ever ask him if he had it. If he did I missed it.

Shakerag, do you have another tracking device?
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UXLZ

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Re: Paranormal 24 - Day 3 eats Psychics for breakfast
« Reply #1306 on: February 16, 2015, 01:20:30 am »

It occurred to me that Shakerag never claimed he had an additional tracking device nor did anybody ever ask him if he had it. If he did I missed it.

Shakerag, do you have another tracking device?

Well, we all sort of assumed it I think, since Meph said building another device is automatic unless you choose to do another action, he either has another device or he's the scum who killed NQT. (Since presumably Urist hasn't blocked him.)
At least, that's what I did.

Quote from: Cheeetar
I believe he should claim if it's possible his double vote might otherwise cause a tie. If he left his vote on, say, Flabort and there was a tie due to this (not enough people switched from Flabort to TDS), he wouldn't've been blameless in that situation because nobody but him would've known of his doublevote. I'm not really saying the late claim is scummy, but I'm not sure it's as credible as my own which leaves open the possibility he's a third party or a dopp with a night action.

Claiming really quickly is usually seen as quite bad behavior. (I mean, look at the reaction to 4mask and Flabort).
I guess in the case of Enchanter there may be an argument otherwise, but I'm not sure. His 'lack of claiming' could be seen negatively, but you also have to remember that you or Toaster could both be Exterminators for all we know. I'm not saying that's the case, but strictly speaking the Enchanter role has thus far had zero impact on the game.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Paranormal 24 - Day 3 eats Psychics for breakfast
« Reply #1307 on: February 16, 2015, 01:34:56 am »

The Whiteboard
Shakerag: zombie urist
Tiruin: Deus Asmoth, Scripten, Toaster
Toaster: Cheeetar, Jim Groovester
UXLZ: Persus13



Day ends ~5pm Pacific Monday

Got back a little early from LA. Gallifray One was lots of fun!
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Jim Groovester

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Re: Paranormal 24 - Day 3 eats Psychics for breakfast
« Reply #1308 on: February 16, 2015, 02:17:29 am »

It is also the case that the day ends soon and we haven't clearly decided a choice of lynch.

Tiruin is ahead in votes, and I don't too tremendously oppose that lynch, but Toaster and Shakerag have been quieter.
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Cheeetar

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Re: Paranormal 24 - Day 3 eats Psychics for breakfast
« Reply #1309 on: February 16, 2015, 02:22:21 am »

It occurred to me that Shakerag never claimed he had an additional tracking device nor did anybody ever ask him if he had it. If he did I missed it.

Shakerag, do you have another tracking device?

Well, we all sort of assumed it I think, since Meph said building another device is automatic unless you choose to do another action, he either has another device or he's the scum who killed NQT. (Since presumably Urist hasn't blocked him.)
At least, that's what I did.

If Shakerag is unable to tell us where a third person has gone tomorrow (the one outlined in Jim's plan, which I will not open another tab to check just now) then he's a doppelganger who performed the night kill, or otherwise lying about his role.

Toaster, Scripten, DA, could you please summarise your reasons for voting for Tiruin? Preferably less than 500 words (including quotes).
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Cheeetar

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Re: Paranormal 24 - Day 3 eats Psychics for breakfast
« Reply #1310 on: February 16, 2015, 02:25:29 am »

Quote from: Cheeetar
I believe he should claim if it's possible his double vote might otherwise cause a tie. If he left his vote on, say, Flabort and there was a tie due to this (not enough people switched from Flabort to TDS), he wouldn't've been blameless in that situation because nobody but him would've known of his doublevote. I'm not really saying the late claim is scummy, but I'm not sure it's as credible as my own which leaves open the possibility he's a third party or a dopp with a night action.

Claiming really quickly is usually seen as quite bad behavior. (I mean, look at the reaction to 4mask and Flabort).
I guess in the case of Enchanter there may be an argument otherwise, but I'm not sure. His 'lack of claiming' could be seen negatively, but you also have to remember that you or Toaster could both be Exterminators for all we know. I'm not saying that's the case, but strictly speaking the Enchanter role has thus far had zero impact on the game.

Claiming depends on your role. Claiming miller, for example, is generally seen as not bad behaviour. Similarly, I think claiming if you have a vote fuckery role (or at least being around to check that your vote fuckery will not cause a tie vote) is not a bad thing. Context matters- you can't say 'claiming early is always bad'.

Note: I'm not saying 'him claiming late is bad', I'm saying 'him claiming late when he could have claimed earlier and it would have made sense for him to leads me to believe he might have another role'. Understandable?
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Deus Asmoth

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Re: Paranormal 24 - Day 3 eats Psychics for breakfast
« Reply #1311 on: February 16, 2015, 04:05:26 am »

I'm voting Tiruin because she's spent most of the game at this point stalling with promises of a big post. She voted for Scripten during day two, but only gave her reasons for doing so today and after he voted for her she voted for him and continued barely interacting with anyone else. Her reads have been almost entirely neutral, even the ones in her big post, and I just didn't like her claim of having a town read on Pisskop after saying nothing about him during day 2.
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Tiruin

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Re: Paranormal 24 - Day 3 eats Psychics for breakfast
« Reply #1312 on: February 16, 2015, 10:08:26 am »

PPE:
Quote
Alright. I'll make you a deal. I'll step back and start working on other players for a bit, since I don't want to tunnel you. You go ahead and fix those reads. Interact with the rest of the playerbase. It's the weekend, but I think there's another extension.

I still think you're scum, but I have no intention of making my expectations unreasonable. Consider this a chance to show your town motivation.
._.
Now we look like battle buddying each other, if that's a term.
Woohoo, redemption! ... Um, please don't scrutinize this tiny bit of text for deeper stuff. I'm just happy...ish that my stress didn't kill anyone.
I don't like stress hurting people D: Which I just did!



Anyway, net dies for quite a day (plus weekend busyness), and I've resolved to get my intuitive nudge fixed.

Addendum:
> Scripten in a cross-comparison maneuver has a tie-in with mastahcheese; considering proceeding posts thereafter, the notion of 'I can sense a problem in you if I was town and I'd pick on it if I was you, t'would be good for distancing' if both were scum is dissolved more in the stew of analysis.
However I'm wary on his roleclaim. The War Vet is a Paranormal conversion of the Paranoid Gun Owner (ie SHOOT EVERYTHING except the guard guarding me or anyone not in 'my personal space', because they're just standing there and not violating my restraining order [or as far as I know, the War Vet doesn't shoot guards guarding them])--its pretty much a safe fakeclaim for any scum (ie Alien with Tech/Psychic shielding) as it deters any would-be vigs, and relies on the Day-game to scumhunt out. Sans tech, it'd be a nice way for the dopps to wiggle in the massclaim due to...evidently no proof at all for anyone (sans those who'd be brave enough to test + being guarded). That, and on a scumteam--they can coordinate.

As an aside, I've a...very distinct feeling that there are 2 people in correspondence on the scumteam on the roles (ie there may have been fakery, which would be designed to synergize with each other/the rest of the claimed roles) in which is brought up below.

Mephansteras: If a War Vet is Psychic Warden'd (chained), and attacked or visited during the night--do they still kill the actor/visitor/killer?

> @DA: On the thing about pisskop, its his D2 posts which convinced me otherwise (and as a general bad reaction towards him being lynched due to a myriad number of reasons which somehow aren't investigated) I can show posts which convinced me pisskop wasn't RiA'ing scum (as how I felt his attitude was for the game until then...ie in the many duels he had with Jim Groovester.) if you're curious, or any other variant of him being scum solely due to how he made his mid-end D2 pos






Part 1


Starting from the top.

Cheeetar
> Other than how he played his D1 game, there came about something that upsets the PM mechanic. The # of recipients towards information would be the best way to counteract against scum, especially given the full random-role preset.
> His duality (noting himself if seen as scum, and as if town, in correcting others) and keenness in posting brings out a good point in him.
> He was the only other person who PM'd me after NQT--he's the one I had been talking to in PMs (I've never started my own, other than the N1 Mass PM). This is a significant note because I've been able to gauge how he acts through a seemingly one-on-one conversation (...given that the BCC mechanic isn't given detail in the OP). Given many instances of astuteness in his play, and the tone in which it comes off that he's thinking not from a group mind (ref: Duality) brings me to push him aside in the greener pasture.
Conclusion: Town (most likely).

...If I had a Mohs Scale of hardness, you'd be Quartz (7), due to hardness in me seeing your position as scummy, and at the same level also being very well level-headed throughout, given the content and working with the content.
Oh, and all his questions on generally pretty much any capability of most roles--sans asking about the Exterminator, anyway.

I'm curious as to why you PM'd me first, though. Looked like you were in deep contact with NQT there.

PPE:
Lookit' them Posts. Also hi Meph!
...Huh.
Cheeetar, I'm very curious as to your reads on the rest--especially on ZU, UXLZ and Scripten. In part on ZU, due to his behavior. What do you make of how his voting pattern (+ intent/motive to vote) goes?



Jim Groovester
> Not much found thus far, either in cross-correlation analysis or pattern poking. There's a comparative lessening of aggressiveness, though it is replaced by assertiveness in his posts, and he's cut down on the mean icing a lot.
> Can't really detect many things thus far, though the bulk of my queries lie in the D2.



Shakerag
> I am...unsure about him. Honestly, the first interaction with him was through a PM. Throughout this game, there's been a level of absence akin to Toaster, and in his posts they've been...a bit deeper than is expected of someone busy throughout the lifespan of this game. Towards his posts, I work on feeling, though unsure if this is intuition speaking. He doesn't seem like scum, honestly.
> He claimed HUMAN MIL. SCIENTIST (with the full aforementioned power) early in a day wherein the timing would be...quite essential. Not too long or not too late, though I do feel like there's a PM game holding out the other side of him here. Either way, he's neutral.

Anyway, have a PM.
Spoiler: Which went like so (click to show/hide)
Wherein this left me with an annoying curiosity as to why this was asked--and further more on why I did not receive a hug!
In context of the game, it did paint a target sign on Shakerag with the appended note of 'Watch for connections, or the usual ShakeragHumor'.

On that note, Shakerag: Did your...Valentine's wish have any relation with...now? As in February ~14? TO any choice whatsoever?

What's the seeming benefit of the Tracking Device Scientist over the Snooper bot? Given how lame you saw the others, there must be a good reason that topped the latter. Utility? Fashion? Technological appeal?



Persus13
> Acts with a near parallel amount of insight akin to Cheeetar, competing for the top echelon of 'who is town in Tiruin's eyes!' rank! Especially regarding how D2 was considered--as well as how D1 was considered; herein I put forward the assumption of the scum mindset, on how one would 'play the middleman' or the mediator in an otherwise conflicting situation: it doesn't click, primarily due to how the wordplay was offered.
> He can be scum doing the fair judge ploy? Fine, that's a reasonable idea to put up on the drawing board, but is it plausible? A vote pattern analysis doesn't depict a straightforward answer, but a rather pointedly...scattered answer showing a level of precision in his work, as well as a cross-relational check. His attitude is going straight-fine too, however I still carry a fear that this game is going too well.

     --{Expounding//NQT-POKE}Under the ideology that this seriously can't be how the game will be won. Scum can't all be lurkers or the inactive people. Neither does it seem to be a 2/3rds note (ie pointing in me, Toaster, Shakerag...) given the opportunity of D1/2; though in D2, I've to argue the...precociousness of NQT's vibe towards pisskop.
...
Can you really argue RiA correctly like that and have it unchallenged? Nobody spoke against it, and I could understand how reasonable it was at that time (I use 'at that time' to...respect DA's bias) but it was not brought up or questioned at all. I'm challenging you in death here. That's a really...flimsy kind of maneuver in squaring off against a playstyle which 'seems unconventional'; despite his attitude, he's shown a good level of keen situational awareness--and while he's not the...most eloquent or graceful speaker, the essence of his posts show the town-spirit.
And that's the Telepath speaking.
Yeah. The concept of RiA is...to me, a fairly inundated one. An excuse brought upon those who balk at the audacity of the action--and one borne of underlying assumption. See Sun Tzu's art of war--very clear examples show unexpected maneuvers working due to reputation or how interpretations occur; in a neutral viewpoint, or in search of the meaning within their words, their plans would fail, but that didn't go as planned at many times (as a vague example anyway. Just using analogy to POKE AT RIA.)



Deus Asmoth
> Seriously picking up the neophyte conditioned bias there. You should judge every game as anew, with each person's behavior as a unique experience; metaknowledge is a guide, but is not conclusive of their behavior as expected--therein lies the FALLACY OF CONDITIONING AND A CLOSED MIND.
> Am unsure how to judge his reasoning. In part, its off in many areas. In part, its off in a way that doesn't necessarily poke scummy, though conventionally it could be regarded as scummy--though this may be just me being too influenced due to being a mediator of many sorts this year and all...
Still, looking back...there's a lot lacking.

DA: If I had been more active, how would that affect your reads and your placement of vote?

I'm voting Tiruin because she's spent most of the game at this point stalling with promises of a big post. She voted for Scripten during day two, but only gave her reasons for doing so today and after he voted for her she voted for him and continued barely interacting with anyone else. Her reads have been almost entirely neutral, even the ones in her big post, and I just didn't like her claim of having a town read on Pisskop after saying nothing about him during day 2.
Yeah, its like you didn't read my posts -_-
Could you give an in-depth analysis of how you took my vote and redaction of said vote later on? What do you think I was thinking?




zombie urist//Deathsword
> Let's bring up a change of pace; recentmost posts here as a start. 'Only possible' teams? That's a ping on my note on your attitude being either an extreme form of your town-thought, or your subtle act of being scum in the area of your wordplay: You judge, but lack the details as to why this is extremely reasonable that it be worded as a conclusion instead of an opinion.
     --This is tempered by your play the whole game, anyway. There has been in part, mistakes on understanding roles and situations where these roles lead to inaccuracies in interpretation...but this? This really piques my curiosity.

Checking the cross-matching.
Quote from: Towards Toaster's Vote
Maybe I don't know. I think his reasoning on voting Tiruin is mostly based on logic.
Logic how? How does this kind of attitude make me SCUM rather than TOWN? Only under the assumption that I don't care? Expound on that more on why that makes me scum, please.

Quote
If you are town and war vet, there is literally no reason to kill you. Your role doesn't provide the town with any information at night.
And...you're somehow rationalizing this at face-value? Repeating what I said before--the War Vet is a really nice fakeclaim, for town OR scum due to its power to provoke the bold, in the most superficial sense, and played right (I recall Dariush did this before? That was awesome play...but I forgot where), it becomes a weapon of good potential that only psychics can intrude in.
What concerns me here is your wording. The 'literally no reason to kill you' doesn't...really seem right in my Semantics Department, given the context in which it is spoken. I typed all this from offline so I can't quote the two quotes of Scripten and yours where its under.
Connected:
Quote
The scum team has no incentive to kill you over someone like Jim or me.
And this speaks of mindreading. Well, giving the possibility of this kind of rationality from their perspective, yeah, I've realized that; but why do you think everything is honest here?
Do you think the scumteam fakeclaimed their roles?
Do you think anyone from the Town fakeclaimed their roles?

Quote
People who probably aren't scum:
This lacks on why some people are 'probably townier' than those you've ranked as 'probably scum'. Like Deus' case. How is he 'probably town for protecting Pisskop'--and what really makes him seem town if he's scum in that scenario?



Toaster
> ...I really didn't read him up well, but I'm really unsure as to why his vote is placed like that--seemingly, maybe, due to lacking looking in others and placing it on the most hotly disputed claim at the time being?




Woo 22 replies.
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Tiruin

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Re: Paranormal 24 - Day 3 eats Psychics for breakfast
« Reply #1313 on: February 16, 2015, 10:14:50 am »

Ugh. DA//Toaster//Jim part was snipped :X




Tiruin is ahead in votes, and I don't too tremendously oppose that lynch, but Toaster and Shakerag have been quieter.
What do you think of the presumable scumteam?
Is it all going to be quiet?



Quote from: Cheeetar
I believe he should claim if it's possible his double vote might otherwise cause a tie. If he left his vote on, say, Flabort and there was a tie due to this (not enough people switched from Flabort to TDS), he wouldn't've been blameless in that situation because nobody but him would've known of his doublevote. I'm not really saying the late claim is scummy, but I'm not sure it's as credible as my own which leaves open the possibility he's a third party or a dopp with a night action.

Claiming really quickly is usually seen as quite bad behavior. (I mean, look at the reaction to 4mask and Flabort).
I guess in the case of Enchanter there may be an argument otherwise, but I'm not sure. His 'lack of claiming' could be seen negatively, but you also have to remember that you or Toaster could both be Exterminators for all we know. I'm not saying that's the case, but strictly speaking the Enchanter role has thus far had zero impact on the game.

Subtle generalization there UXLZ. Do take in the evident notion of the time of the game when claims are done, compared to the inference given by Cheeetar. 'Usually' does not discount that kind of thinking, especially as the details and how it was claimed create and construct the credibility and believability of that behavior.

Regardless of most cases reasonable in the situation. (Which means claiming Alien Operative isn't a smart idea.)

And 'thus far' seems real vague. UXLZ, what do you REALLY think about the Enchanters, sans comparison to everyone else but their claims?
Are you saying that its a good notion for fakeclaiming?
Let's angle the same question I gave ZU to you.

Do you think the scumteam fakeclaimed their roles?
Do you think anyone from the Town fakeclaimed their roles?
Is there any variance as to the degree of claiming/fakeclaiming in your perspective?
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Mephansteras

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Re: Paranormal 24 - Day 3 eats Psychics for breakfast
« Reply #1314 on: February 16, 2015, 11:34:19 am »

Mephansteras: If a War Vet is Psychic Warden'd (chained), and attacked or visited during the night--do they still kill the actor/visitor/killer?

No, a blocked War Vet has lost their action and therefore cannot do anything at all.
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Scripten

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Re: Paranormal 24 - Day 3 eats Psychics for breakfast
« Reply #1315 on: February 16, 2015, 12:31:14 pm »

I have class and a meeting with my professor to talk about my independent projects for senior year for the next few hours, so I really only have had time to read over Tiruin's responses in detail, but my response is going to be short. Her posts and logic feel like town-motivated thoughts. Balls. I think I might have been wrong in my read. I'm not entirely sure, since she is an experienced player and I did tell her exactly what I was looking for, but these reads don't feel like scum fabrication.

Unvote Tiruin

Right now, I'm torn between Toaster and Zombie Urist. They both feel like they've been playing to the same goal, and it doesn't feel like they're looking for scum. Toaster, in particular, seems to be looking only for the most convenient targets and I don't like how he's trying to paint me (and maybe a few others, though I don't recall off-hand) as third party. Setting up associative reads like that is not a town mentality. (Remember how much both TDS and Mastahcheese seemed to be looking for third parties?) I also find his switch from chainsaw defending Tiruin to voting her to be quite scummy. I thought that he was defending his scumbuddy before, but with Tiruin's read changing in my mind, I wonder if perhaps he was trying to buddy up with her without trying too hard.

Meph: Could we get an updated votecount and deadline announcement, please? I think we're nearing the end of the day.
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Deus Asmoth

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Re: Paranormal 24 - Day 3 eats Psychics for breakfast
« Reply #1316 on: February 16, 2015, 01:09:12 pm »

Tiruin, where am I applying metagaming at all? The only thing I recall was one remark (in jest) that you liked saying that I was acting defensively in response to your comments. For your question, if you'd posted more, there'd be more content to judge you on which would make you seem scummier or townier depending on its content. As it is, I'm looking at what you've posted, which isn't a lot until today.

Regarding Pisskop, my issue isn't that you thought he was town or scum. Obviously a lot of people thought he was scum. What was the point of you saying you were reading him as town when he was already dead?
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Mephansteras

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Re: Paranormal 24 - Day 3 eats Psychics for breakfast
« Reply #1317 on: February 16, 2015, 01:20:42 pm »

The Whiteboard
zombie urist: Tiruin
Shakerag: zombie urist
Tiruin: Deus Asmoth, Toaster
Toaster: Cheeetar, Jim Groovester, Scripten
UXLZ: Persus13




Day ends ~5pm Pacific Today (about 6.5 hours)
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zombie urist

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Re: Paranormal 24 - Day 3 eats Psychics for breakfast
« Reply #1318 on: February 16, 2015, 01:24:15 pm »

Which we know because??? Jeeeeeze. This is so utterly frustrating. There are plenty of other people who could perform the kill- if somebody dies tonight, no, we don't immediately know if it was Jim or not, unless Tiruin telepaths him, which is what you were objecting to.

I believe he should claim if it's possible his double vote might otherwise cause a tie. If he left his vote on, say, Flabort and there was a tie due to this (not enough people switched from Flabort to TDS), he wouldn't've been blameless in that situation because nobody but him would've known of his doublevote. I'm not really saying the late claim is scummy, but I'm not sure it's as credible as my own which leaves open the possibility he's a third party or a dopp with a night action.
If Tiruin does Telepath Jim all we would know is that Jim didn't kill and not who did. I don't understand the point of this argument.

Meh. If Toaster was an enchanter he would probably be careful not to cause such an obvious situation as town or scum. If you don't think his late claim is scummy, then basically your entire reason for voting him is that "he isn't very active" and you don't like the possibility of a scum enchanter, which is too weak for today.

Toaster, Scripten, DA, could you please summarise your reasons for voting for Tiruin? Preferably less than 500 words (including quotes).
Defense of Tiruin noted.

zombie urist//Deathsword
> Let's bring up a change of pace; recentmost posts here as a start. 'Only possible' teams? That's a ping on my note on your attitude being either an extreme form of your town-thought, or your subtle act of being scum in the area of your wordplay: You judge, but lack the details as to why this is extremely reasonable that it be worded as a conclusion instead of an opinion.
     --This is tempered by your play the whole game, anyway. There has been in part, mistakes on understanding roles and situations where these roles lead to inaccuracies in interpretation...but this? This really piques my curiosity.
Everything I say is my opinion. Its getting late in the game so everyone should have some conclusions.

Checking the cross-matching.
Quote from: Towards Toaster's Vote
Maybe I don't know. I think his reasoning on voting Tiruin is mostly based on logic.
Logic how? How does this kind of attitude make me SCUM rather than TOWN? Only under the assumption that I don't care? Expound on that more on why that makes me scum, please.
The reason Toaster wants to lynch you makes sense logically in that if you are town, your role isn't too useful anyways and your role as scum is pretty dangerous.

Quote
If you are town and war vet, there is literally no reason to kill you. Your role doesn't provide the town with any information at night.
And...you're somehow rationalizing this at face-value? Repeating what I said before--the War Vet is a really nice fakeclaim, for town OR scum due to its power to provoke the bold, in the most superficial sense, and played right (I recall Dariush did this before? That was awesome play...but I forgot where), it becomes a weapon of good potential that only psychics can intrude in.
What concerns me here is your wording. The 'literally no reason to kill you' doesn't...really seem right in my Semantics Department, given the context in which it is spoken. I typed all this from offline so I can't quote the two quotes of Scripten and yours where its under.
Its too risky for scum to attempt to kill war vet and even then there's many more useful targets. I don't see any good potential for fakeclaiming war vet, so it would be nice if you could list some examples.

Connected:
Quote
The scum team has no incentive to kill you over someone like Jim or me.
And this speaks of mindreading. Well, giving the possibility of this kind of rationality from their perspective, yeah, I've realized that; but why do you think everything is honest here?
Do you think the scumteam fakeclaimed their roles?
Do you think anyone from the Town fakeclaimed their roles?
Because town have no reason not to. Probably, probably not.

Quote
People who probably aren't scum:
This lacks on why some people are 'probably townier' than those you've ranked as 'probably scum'. Like Deus' case. How is he 'probably town for protecting Pisskop'--and what really makes him seem town if he's scum in that scenario?
Because scum probably wouldn't bother protecting town.
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The worst part of all of this is that Shakerag won.

zombie urist

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Re: Paranormal 24 - Day 3 eats Psychics for breakfast
« Reply #1319 on: February 16, 2015, 01:33:06 pm »

I'm going to tie the vote with Tiruin
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The worst part of all of this is that Shakerag won.
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