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[Gabeux]

You better get rich and make more cool space games. 
Triple voted.

[Paul]

I noticed that swarm gargants don't drop loot. Checking the files I realize this is because they are set not to drop cargo. Not sure if this is intended.

Also, a bit nitpicky, but the Absolution ship description says it's the fastest battleship; but it's actually the same speed as the much tougher Diamond and slower than the Manowar and Onyx. So basically it has the weakest armor and among the weakest equipment slots, and the speed advantage it's supposed to have is trumped by three other ships that are also way more durable and better armed.

[EsKa]

@Gabeux:

Don't worry I am kinda stuck with space games, I am not sure my audience would follow if I started making platformers (not sure i'd even follow myself ). Pretty sure I won't get rich any time soon, though, even if the steam greenlight process is successful (and i doubt it will, my audience is on average much older that the one on steam).

@Paul:

Nit-pick away ! It's a good sign in my mind. About the Gargant, thanks, it's a leftover from the days when i had no lifeform "ship" class. It was to prevent them from dropping weapons. Thought about updating the queens and guardians, dunno why this one slipped by.

About the Absolution (sirak battleship), yeah it was supposed to be the fastest, Manowar aside, but since then 3 factions were added and yeah that happened. Honestly, I need to review ship specs in more details, especially now that I have a formula giving an approximate strength level. Thanks to it, the game can't go too unbalanced as factions with weaker ships can buy more as they are cheaper. But looking at it now, yeah the Sirak battleship is really on the low end, I'll change its stats accordingly, and review the others too. (i really need to add some table type display in the editors)

Cheers,
EsKa.


Edit: Made a lot of progress on the sound engine. It's night and day, seriously. Well, the SFX themselves are still basic, but at least this is directional basic that doesn't make the game lag now

[Paul]

Getting a weird thing where some pirate bases are killing themselves. So far both of them are the ones labeled simply Pirate Guild Base. The fighters launch and instead of attacking me they destroy their own base and leave me alone.

And some of the missions I accept to kill pirate leaders or destroy bases are completing as soon as I accept them, giving me money for nothing. Not sure if the target ship isn't spawning or if it was destroyed before I accepted it, but it's giving me credit for it either way.

Also having a weird issue with some ships that I get (build or buy) showing up in the ship list twice. Clicking one of the entries highlights both. Doesn't seem to cause any issues other than cluttering up the ship list.

I can post my save game if you need it.

[EsKa]

Getting a weird thing where some pirate bases are killing themselves. So far both of them are the ones labeled simply Pirate Guild Base. The fighters launch and instead of attacking me they destroy their own base and leave me alone.

Found why. Apparently it's not new. It has to do with area of effect weaponry. I think the base shot down one of its ships due to the AoE of one of its guns and the remaining fighters turned on it. At least it looks like it, added a few conditions so it doesn't happen again. I tried a dozen times and afaik it doesn't happen anymore.

And some of the missions I accept to kill pirate leaders or destroy bases are completing as soon as I accept them, giving me money for nothing. Not sure if the target ship isn't spawning or if it was destroyed before I accepted it, but it's giving me credit for it either way.

Found and fixed. But that's very weird. I know I fixed that exact same bug months ago. I know I tested for it a couple weeks before release, and here it is. As if i did nothing about it :/ I'd blame the lack of a decent sleep schedule the last few months, but.. Anyway.. triple checked all missions types vs all conditions. It works as intended now.

Also having a weird issue with some ships that I get (build or buy) showing up in the ship list twice. Clicking one of the entries highlights both. Doesn't seem to cause any issues other than cluttering up the ship list.

Holy cow ! That's The Bug, the reason why it crashes on people at semi random with no pattern. Do you know If you save despite the bug and reload the same save, is the ship still duplicated (The save system has an old game checksum and repair part dating from before beta 5, it may "repair the duplicate") ? You sure it's both build and buy ?

In any case, oh yes, i do want that savegame.


---

Once this snafu resolved, I'll publish just a patch (exe + modified files) to make sure everything is okay before releasing officially.

[Paul]

I've had it a few times in this game. Definitely both when buying and building.

And it seems relaunching the game and loading the save has indeed fixed it, none of the duplicated ships are still there. I never had any crashes due to it. I can still provide the save if you think it will help, but at this point I think I may have saved over it (it was a quicksave) possibly after it auto fixed itself.

If the save right now won't be helpful I can keep an eye out for it again. If it happens again I can immediately save and send the file to you.

[EsKa]

Oki, the save won't help if it auto-corrected, so don't bother. But I am 99% sure I found why it happened, and yeah I was definitively not looking where I should have until now.

If you have the cheat menu enable, there's a button called "Game CheckSum" there. If it happens again, pause the game and press that button, Copy/paste the result. If not or don't want to (temptation and all that), it's not a bit deal i am pretty sure I am correct in my assumption.

To explain that in plain terms for those interested:

All game objects (ship, docks, asteroids, loot drop, basically everything beside bullets) are identified by an unique number (called identifier). The code rarely rely on this identifier but when it does, it need to work flawlessly or else we can get duplicate objects as you got, in that case it's unlikely to kill the game especially if you save often. But there's the other side of the coin: 2 very different objects (like a ship and a dock) could end up with the same number. Suffice to say that if the game try to retrieve ship #123456 and gets an asteroid likely 20 sectors away from where the ship is supposed to be, things can go 'a bit' bonkers.

The game being multi-threaded, objects can and are often created at the same exact time, meaning that if I am not extra careful in the "give this object an unique number and increment it by one for next object" code, I can end with 2 objects with the same number. I thought I did it right, and mostly did, but there's one small silly tiny (but very embarrassing) mistake in how I wrote it, giving a very small window in which it can f*ck up and give 2 times the same number. The more busy is the computer and the game, the longer the window (basically. It's a more complicated than that, but that's the gist of it).

[ollobrains]

do u have plans to fix this conflict with multiple ids being given to the same object or is it a bit ore of a difficult rewrite

[EsKa]

do u have plans to fix this conflict with multiple ids being given to the same object or is it a bit ore of a difficult rewrite

I am currently testing a fix. Seems to work okay, but the game hasn't been running long enough to be 100% sure yet.

[Paul]

It's not always correctly identifying ships that are attacking you as enemies. It occurs specifically if you attack a neutral carrier or base (primarily happens for pirates since you can't declare war on them) and occasionally happens when a neutral ship leading a fighter group decides you're an enemy - such as pirates picking you as a mark or a patrol spotting your illegal goods. I think the second case is happening when the fighters are still warping in from another location, so as to be off the map when the hostility starts. Lead ship might be showing as red, but following ships are grey and my guns pass right through them unless I click on them. It makes fighting these fighters quite difficult, as I may have 10 of them flying circles right over my ship and my guns pass through all but the one I'm specifically clicking on.

Speaking of pirates, being able to declare war on them would be nice. You can join them to get them to stop attacking you, but you can't tell your ships to just kill them all. Even if I have a fleet of ships guarding the corridor leading to my area of space it doesn't matter, because they just warp in on my warp gate waltz past all my defenses near the warp gate and only then do they become hostile and start killing my ships. It kind of makes sense for them to be able to sneak in builders or other commercial ships and set up bases in my territory as well as maybe slip a few small ships through here and there, but I'm having multiple capital ships with contingents of fighters warp in via warpgate and kill my construction ships and the military ships assigned to protect them. I don't have an issue with them sending these fleets, just them using my own warp gate and flying past the fleet stationed at it by feigning neutrality to do so.

Also, a UI thing: I don't see any way to have the ship you're currently controlling get repairs at player owned shipyards. If you control another ship you can then select your ship and tell it to get repairs; but there isn't a way to do repairs on your own ship unless you go to a different faction's base and pay money. Not a huge issue as you can just select another ship for a bit while you order your damaged one in for repairs.

And finally a note about balance: The Alphatech Heavy Plasma still seems to be the best gun by far in terms of DPS and power efficiency. It uses less power per damage than any other weapon that I have seen so far. A ship with 10 of them is still very viable, and chews through everything very fast. It may need its power usage upped a bit if your intention is to encourage large ships to have to have some small guns along with the XL ones.

[EsKa]

It seems I fixed the issue explained earlier. I can't be 100% certain, but managed to get the game running for 20 hours in a row with no duplicate or code failure. I'll let it run for a couple days again to be sure, but so far, it seems to work well (I am sure someone will prove me wrong the second the new version is uploaded :p)

@Paul: Thanks for the input.

About Friend/Foe identification. That's something I noticed too, I'll get that sorted. I think that's because those ships are not yet actively hostile toward you, as you said they lag behind the leader and are not in engagement range yet. I'll change that so they get the same identification as their leader.

About the lack of DoW on pirates, yeah that's a side effect of removing them from the diplomatic menu, mostly to remove an exploit where you could take over pirate territory. I'll add a policy option to set your stance (and incidentally your gates' stance) toward pirates.

About repairs, good point. I'll add that to the menu system.

I'll check the weapon's stats and adjust accordingly.


edit: All fixed, with a few additional options -> screenshot.

[Paul]

I had a little free time today so I made a faction mod, adding a new faction to the game. Faction is complete - special colony, custom ranks, full set of ships, stations (only the military/shipyard/trade stations), and player usable tech group. I also included two profiles that let you start in the faction's space with their ships - a bounty hunter setup and a builder setup. The sprites are modifications of sprites made for the game Starsector, used with permission.

You can download it here: Google Drive link for Starborn Dominion v0.1 mod

To install it just drop it in your mods folder and use the mod manager through the launcher to enable it. I believe you need the deluxe version to play mods, but I haven't tried on the regular version.

Generated maps will automatically give them their own territory. New games in existing maps will give them a capital square in a random unoccupied system. I had intended to make a custom map to go along with the mod, but found the map generator a bit tedious to work with. Maybe in the future.

The faction's ships are focused similarly to the pirate faction - high speed, high armament; but low on the armor and shields. I tried to keep them balanced vs the original ships while giving them a bit of unique flavor. Their cargo ship, for instance, is very fast - but completely unarmed.

Oh and here's an example of the sprites:

Spoiler: Battleship (click to show/hide)

And a little feedback and questions for EsKa that I thought of while modding:

• Modifying files that are already in the mod folder is slightly bugged, as it saves them to the core files instead of the mod folder but then reads from the mod folder (so your changes don't appear to take affect, but you just have to move the file).
  
  
• I can't get animations working in the mod folder because it won't pick up the anims folders. Not sure if I'm somehow missing the proper folder structure (tried putting them in sprites like the core files are setup, and just directly in the mod's folder) or if it's just bugged. Works fine when put in the core game folders.
  
  
• Do you plan to expose the event system to modding? Making scripted additions to mod factions - like the SPQR's changing stance and war declaration, and the AI Core events - would be interesting.
  
  
• Do you intend to expose any part of the AI to players? On a code level by making the stuff external to the game app (even if editing them requires editing and compiling a source file using a third party compiler); on a setting level of changing settings in the editor (such as being able to change the priority on building certain factories for factions, or target priority of AI modules, etc), or even more in-depth in-game settings for the player's empire automation.

-edit- Oh and the mod is not savegame compatible. Adding a new faction borks the faction list and causes some weirdness and errors when you load a save. These errors even carry over to new games, so if you try loading a save you must exit and reopen the game to get things working right.

[EsKa]

Woot ! Great work Paul, I'll give it a go as soon a I can

You can sort of install it in the basic edition by overwriting the data folder directly, but it won't make the faction playable or useable in a scenario, also it will likely cause issues if you've overwritten any existing file to include your faction. And of course removing the mod can prove problematic.

Generated maps will automatically give them their own territory. New games in existing maps will give them a capital square in a random unoccupied system. I had intended to make a custom map to go along with the mod, but found the map generator a bit tedious to work with. Maybe in the future.

I think you can edit existing maps and put them in your mod file structure. The game should use the 'updated' map when the mod is active instead of the default one.

1. Modifying files that are already in the mod folder is slightly bugged, as it saves them to the core files instead of the mod folder but then reads from the mod folder (so your changes don't appear to take affect, but you just have to move the file).

True. In fact the editor doesn't understand the mod structure and it may have edited other files in the data folder at random (well probably not random, but still) instead. Noticed that when you told me about the faulty bonus ship. Changing its faction changed the faction of some other human ship instead. I am correcting that for 1.05. Meanwhile, it's easier to do your changes in the data folder, and once done, move everything into the mod sub-folder.

I can't get animations working in the mod folder because it won't pick up the anims folders. Not sure if I'm somehow missing the proper folder structure (tried putting them in sprites like the core files are setup, and just directly in the mod's folder) or if it's just bugged. Works fine when put in the core game folders.

I recall there was some kind of problem with putting animations into the mod folder and that I had not the time to deal with it before 1.0. I will see what I can do about it, but except if it's trivial (it probably isn't, otherwise that would be already done) it won't be in 1.05.

The map editor is a bit difficult to use. Do you intend to make it more user friendly? Like maybe a paint mode where you can draw empty sectors, or a faction change mode where you can draw a new faction without changing the contents, or a way to add whole random solar systems at a time? Maybe even be able to grab and move sectors and solar systems. I understand that these features would require a significant rewrite, but it would make creating maps oh so much easier (for you and for us since you use this editor too, haha).

The day I announce a map pack coming soon will likely be the day the editor will be updated

But seriously, yeah it is annoying to use. You have no idea how long it took to design Imperium and Hive-world. Especially the first one, at this time I really had no other option than to make sectors one at a time. So, yes I will replace the map editor by something more user friendly when I get the time to do so, but it's going to take a while as it's a big chunk of code that need to be replaced completely, not just updated.

That said, you can already "paint" empty sectors directly. In "Draw Mode" there's "add sector" in which you can keep the left mouse button pressed and move the mouse around to add sectors. You can even set the faction and solar system for what you draw with the "solar ID" and "Faction" drop downs. The display lags until you release the button, but it does work. Same goes for changing existing sectors' faction and solar system or both with "set faction", "solar system ID" and "change system/faction".

Do you plan to expose the event system to modding? Making scripted additions to mod factions - like the SPQR's changing stance and war declaration, and the AI Core events - would be interesting.

see below

Do you intend to expose any part of the AI to players? On a code level by making the stuff external to the game app (even if editing them requires editing and compiling a source file using a third party compiler); on a setting level of changing settings in the editor (such as being able to change the priority on building certain factories for factions, or target priority of AI modules, etc), or even more in-depth in-game settings for the player's empire automation.

Well, I'd love to, that's for sure. Some parts of the game definitively could be. Ship AI modules especially (not just yours, but most of the AI ships too) are relatively self contained, structured the same way and use commands/queries from a list available to all ships. It means that opening it to LUA, or any other method, shouldn't be that difficult. The faction layer AI, possibly, once it gets its much deserved rewrite (it is planned), but that will likely be more similar to a bunch a variables to alter at your leisure than proper coding. The event system, however, not so much in its current state, I would need to open the whole game structure for modding, and I wouldn't have a clue where to start.

As you imagine, it would be very time consuming, especially as I've never done that before. I made programs for years, I have been modding all kinds of games for even longer, but paradoxically, beside opening the data (as it is in UG), I've never tried integrating a script system or opening my own code for plugins. I do want to try, likely starting with ship AI modules as it seems to be the easiest (and also because it could save me time in the long run) and then maybe expending toward whatever will feel the more convenient after that. Don't hold your breath, though, it's not gonna happen for quite a while (let's face it, it's not something I can reasonably do until I can make a living out of gamedev).

-edit- Oh and the mod is not savegame compatible. Adding a new faction borks the faction list and causes some weirdness and errors when you load a save. These errors even carry over to new games, so if you try loading a save you must exit and reopen the game to get things working right.

Uhm, I'll add some warning message when this kind of situation occurs. Can't do much more, save and game's data structures don't like being changed mid game.

Cheers,
EsKa.

[Paul]

Oh I meant that last bit as a warning to anyone using the mod, I never expected a mod like that to be save compatible lol

-edit- Got a bit of time for a proper reply now.

I thought about editing the existing maps thing, but wasn't sure if it would be a good idea to do so since it would allow people with the basic version to play the maps from the deluxe. And the bigger maps is one of the features you advertise for the deluxe edition (they are pretty good maps). If you're okay with it I could release a version with the faction added to all the basic maps. If not I can eventually make my own maps.

Speaking of map editor, I realized the paint thing was working shortly after posting (I edited it out, but you had already started replying apparently haha). It's not nearly as clunky now that I realized how it actually works. I was just tired and somehow completely missed the draw mode drop down box (it was my first time using the map editor). It would be nice to be able to place entire random solar systems and grab and drag them around though.

Opening more of the game to modding in the future would be nice. Just being able to change the AI and events would make things like total conversions a possibility, and let a faction modder spice their faction up with nice events. Externalizing the event system would be great if you ever got the chance to do it (maybe in a sequel if it's too much of a code rewrite for this one, haha). Wouldn't necessarily need an ingame scripting engine to make events work - just enough structure to make them do what you want them to do and set conditions on them firing. So like you could have an event editor and select the faction(s) it targets, the conditions it happens on, and the effects of it. And the core game's event code would read that and do the necessary if checks for the list of events every so often to see if they should be started.

The game stands up on its own well enough without it, but you can't really do cool mods without access to some sort of events and AI programming.

[EsKa]

Unending Galaxy v1.0.5 is out

@Paul:

Oh I meant that last bit as a warning to anyone using the mod, I never expected a mod like that to be save compatible lol

Yep I understood, but it's still a fail on my part not to tell about it somewhere in the program. Worst, in some cases, if you don't look at the debug log, the game kinda looks like it's working (at least for a while). I added a short warning in the manager. I was a bit short on time to put a warning during save/load, as it would have required some changes to the save format.

I thought about editing the existing maps thing, but wasn't sure if it would be a good idea to do so since it would allow people with the basic version to play the maps from the deluxe. And the bigger maps is one of the features you advertise for the deluxe edition (they are pretty good maps). If you're okay with it I could release a version with the faction added to all the basic maps. If not I can eventually make my own maps.

Mmh yeah forgot about that, good you brought it up. There's a built-in ultra basic "protection" to prevent the use of disallowed tech groups (scenarios included) by the player, but I kinda overlooked the map part. And it's a tricky one... I don't want to police modders or spent too much time securing the basic edition from abuse either. It will most likely become obsolete post 1.1 anyway (still available, just not updated). Please hold on until next version, I'll add a check to the basic version so it sticks to the standard maps.

Speaking of map editor, I realized the paint thing was working shortly after posting (I edited it out, but you had already started replying apparently haha). It's not nearly as clunky now that I realized how it actually works. I was just tired and somehow completely missed the draw mode drop down box (it was my first time using the map editor).

Btw, copying nebulae works in a weird way. I might as well explain it too. Set the nebula and clouds for a sector normally. To apply the same settings to other sectors, press the "copy" button in the top right corner and use draw mode / "paste colors" (it's a paint mode method too). Yeah, i know, it's weird.

It would be nice to be able to place entire random solar systems and grab and drag them around though.

Indeed it would Will do, just not right now. My focus is to finish some commonly requested game features first. So I can announce 1.1 to the gaming press and hope to get an article or two before September. Finish colonies, Add 'radar' of sorts, redesign the news (faction/global) into something more useful,  streamline how to select/move/use ships/camera, add armor types with damage absorption vs damage type and probably a few things I can remember right now.

After that, yeah I'll take some time to improve the toolkit as a whole, not just the map editor.

Spoiler: Modding/AI/Events (click to show/hide)

Opening more of the game to modding in the future would be nice. Just being able to change the AI and events would make things like total conversions a possibility, and let a faction modder spice their faction up with nice events. Externalizing the event system would be great if you ever got the chance to do it (maybe in a sequel if it's too much of a code rewrite for this one, haha). Wouldn't necessarily need an ingame scripting engine to make events work - just enough structure to make them do what you want them to do and set conditions on them firing. So like you could have an event editor and select the faction(s) it targets, the conditions it happens on, and the effects of it. And the core game's event code would read that and do the necessary if checks for the list of events every so often to see if they should be started.

The game stands up on its own well enough without it, but you can't really do cool mods without access to some sort of events and AI programming.

Not to mention that as a modder you can get away with stuff that would bring me to court if i tried as I don't think the "it's only a non profit mod" defense works very well when you're modding your own game.

Ship AI, i'd love to. And it seems easy enough to open it.

The core of the faction layer AI is a nested mess of if/cases/loops. In it's current states it's already hard enough to alter it myself, let alone opening it to modding. But it will be getting its rewrite using modern AI techniques soon, then we'll see how/if it can be opened at least in a basic form.

There's a problem when it comes to the event system from my perspective. Sure I can make a basic script/menu/whatever for it, and add a list of triggers (time spent, player strength, money, empire X number of Y, ....), no problem here.  But adding the effect(s) is another story. Simple things like "X makes war/peace with Y" or "add/remove flag from faction" are easy. But things like the swarm invasion where I spawn customized "spawners" in specific parts of the galaxy based on a range of factors that will churn out a semi random amount of swarm queens before self destructing, a simple list of effects won't cut it. It needs coding, which lead back to opening it via .dll or via a script system. 2 things that will eat a whole lot of development time.

Basically it all depends on the level of complexity. Very basic events, yes I can do that if need be. More complex stuff, later if the game takes off then I may give it a go.

That said, there's also a middle ground. If you (or any modder for that matter) need something specific, like events that would fire only in your mod or specific ship/dock/faction behaviors for a mod you intend to follow through, I am sure I can add the option(s) fairly quickly to the game and/or editor as long as it's not insanely complicated.

Also, if you want to discuss the subject much further (and i have no problem with that), I think moving the conversation to my forum would be a good idea. I am not sure what we're talking about (especially if we start going into the nitty-gritty details) is as fascinating to the other readers as it is to me.

Cheers,
EsKa.