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Author Topic: Temples!  (Read 16398 times)

Dwarf4Explosives

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Re: Temples!
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2015, 04:34:56 pm »

I've got to agree with you on that Miuramir. I think we'll have to wait a few years until demonic social systems are implemented, though.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 04:39:25 pm by Dwarf4Explosives »
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And yet another bit of proof that RNG is toying with us. We do 1984, it does animal farm
...why do your hydras have two more heads than mine? 
Does that mean male hydras... oh god dammit.

LuckyKobold

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Re: Temples!
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2015, 05:45:03 pm »

Probably.

wierd

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Re: Temples!
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2015, 12:55:48 am »

What I mean by that, is that the personality profiles used for demons have them all being "every demon for himself" in behavior, with subjugation and subservience to more powerful demons/beings being the norm down there.  Given that they are immortal, cannot reproduce, but still somehow exist in limitless numbers, there MUST be some kind of social order down there.  The most likely being small fiefdoms ruled by a central power figure, with less powerful minions held in thrall.  I would expect to find such enclaves in the hell layer.

I think "there MUST be some kind of social order down there" is dubious.  There certainly could be, in some cases; but remember that DF is intended to procedurally generate all sorts of different fantasy realms.  We simply don't have enough data on life as a creature that is not merely freed from the constraints of biology, but has never experienced them. 

How much of not just human history, but of all life we know, is dominated by the need to eat, the drive to reproduce, and the fear of death?  How much has been driven by the great gears of evolution... does this behavior make you more likely to breed before you die, and for your offspring to breed after you? 

I seem to recall some interesting research on the biological benefits of altruism, family & clan relationships, etc.; much of it came down to indirectly helping genes *like* yours pass on.  A creature that was created by godly or magical fiat, with no need or opportunity to breed, no heritage before or after, no genes, no need to eat, sleep, breed, age... would they even understand the *concept* of a society, let alone form one? 

Of course, some fantasy (and actual historical religion) sub-genres have elaborate pantheons, hundreds of hells or layers, and so on.  DF should be capable of generating those, and more; one world might have something bureaucratic and vaguely Chinese, another D&D + Planescape inspired, yet another pure creatures of crawling chaos.  Social structure should be *possible*, and should be procedurally generated to be interesting; but it shouldn't be assumed to be "human-like" for such disparate creatures.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but remember that I myself am asexually oriented, and dont have a reproductive urge.  This lack does not inhibit my ability to be a part of society.

You are overlooking other aspects that are already present in the game that give insight into demonic behavioral patterns.  For instance, when they do escape the hell layer and set up shop on the surface, they pose as gods to win over human minions, and use brutality to dominate goblin minions. Since these beings have no drive for reproduction, do not eat or sleep, and thus have no real need for material wealth, the remaining motivators are purely psychological.  The same motivators that drive demons to take minions on the surface would drive them to take minions in hell.

You are fixating on human-centric drives, and avoiding purely emotional/mental drives.  Demons take minions, because it makes them feel powerful, and thus makes them feel good.  It has nothing to do with sex, nothing to do with reproduction, and food needs have no bearing.  All that's left on maslow's pyramid is safety, and self-actualization. Those are the only motivators that would govern the behavior of such entities.

given that they display a penchant for dominating lesser beings out of an apparent psychological or emotional drive to feel superior, they are highly unlikey to avoid conflict with each other, unless some form of pecking order gets established, and each demon knows where it stands in that heirarchy.  There are likely to be frequent shifts of "loyalty" (I dont think they have a concept of this. more "obedience" actually), which upset power balances, which would make demon politics quite interesting. 

I mentioned that the demons do not reproduce  but maintain limitless numbers. Since demons CAN die, and kiling a powerful rival to cement dominance seems par the course in surface demon interactions, then some form of ad-hoc social structure must exist to prevent the demons from going all "highlander" on each other, even if this simply boils down to powerful demons commading thier underlings not to kill each other (because dead underlings dont genuflect, supplicate, or obey, and thus dont stroke any egos.)

your deconstruction essentially comes from a faulted premise.  I do not say they must have a social order because of biological things.  I say they must have one to avoid there being just one super demon in hell.

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Naryar

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Re: Temples!
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2015, 05:39:07 am »

I seem to recall some interesting research on the biological benefits of altruism, family & clan relationships, etc.; much of it came down to indirectly helping genes *like* yours pass on.  A creature that was created by godly or magical fiat, with no need or opportunity to breed, no heritage before or after, no genes, no need to eat, sleep, breed, age... would they even understand the *concept* of a society, let alone form one? 

Yes. After all, even gods can form societies. Small ones, of course, but yes.

They are intelligent and social (by that I mean they can communicate)

Demons can die and can kill each other, and that is enough to form a social contract. A might-makes-right one, yes, but a social contract nontheless.

Food and drink and breeding is not necessary with society. The only things that need to be here for a society to be created are multiple intelligent creatures that can communicate with each other.

Besides, demons appear to be extremely proud and power-loving, so yes, they would definitely form a society.

oh look i have been ninja'd.

endlessblaze

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Re: Temples!
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2015, 08:30:27 am »

I'm with wierd and naryar here.
There is nothing to stop demons form building a civ, for reasons already stated.
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Kids make great meat shields.
I nominate endlessblaze as our chief military executive!

LordBaal

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Re: Temples!
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2015, 09:16:15 am »

Food and drink and breeding is not necessary with society.
But sure are fun as hell!  :P
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Dwarf4Explosives

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Re: Temples!
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2015, 09:45:17 am »

They would definitely form a civ, but probably not a human-like one.
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And yet another bit of proof that RNG is toying with us. We do 1984, it does animal farm
...why do your hydras have two more heads than mine? 
Does that mean male hydras... oh god dammit.

wierd

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Re: Temples!
« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2015, 09:47:09 am »

Naturally, they have very different needs from humans.

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Ancalagon_TB

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Re: Temples!
« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2015, 06:50:16 pm »

Different religions may have different dietary requirements (must/must not eat X), consider some animals impure and be distressed by their presence OR holly and wish to see them around (and wish them no harm/with to eat them).  Some religion may forbid work on a certain day or season... lots of fun possibilities here...
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hamster cheese supplies are low

Iamblichos

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Re: Temples!
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2015, 06:37:35 am »

Different religions may have different dietary requirements (must/must not eat X), consider some animals impure and be distressed by their presence OR holly and wish to see them around (and wish them no harm/with to eat them).  Some religion may forbid work on a certain day or season... lots of fun possibilities here...

A whole new version of "On Break"... "Holy day".

"Sorry, I would love to go to the trade depot, but today is Ethnush the Prophet of Cheese's birthday, I couldn't possibly violate my holy oblig... oh, they left?"
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I'm new to succession forts in general, yes, but do all forts designed by multiple overseers inevitably degenerate into a body-filled labyrinth of chaos and despair like this? Or is this just a Battlefailed thing?

There isn't much middle ground between killed-by-dragon and never-seen-by-dragon.

gunpowdertea

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Re: Temples!
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2015, 06:46:18 am »

... at which point the player would set out to find new and interesting ways to rage war against this specific sect. (as if we didn't have enough of that IRL). Meh, adds a lot of flavour to the whole thing, and I am definitely looking forward to this. Also the "needs" thing, basically they will eat and drink while partying at the tavern, so no "party - drink - party -eat - party -sleep - party -eat" loops when you need something don really urgently!
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I don't care. I have discovered that if you spawn elves this way, cats will chase them down and eat them.

Dwarf4Explosives

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Re: Temples!
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2015, 08:04:50 am »

If my dwarves start to take holy days (originally typoed as daggers. WTF, brain?) off, I'll attempt the "militant atheist fort" discussed earlier in this topic. The only all-powerful psychopath they're allowed to worship is me.
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And yet another bit of proof that RNG is toying with us. We do 1984, it does animal farm
...why do your hydras have two more heads than mine? 
Does that mean male hydras... oh god dammit.

Tabris01

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Re: Temples!
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2015, 08:30:13 am »

Finally, a reason for my "Armokion"-project :D
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Ancalagon_TB

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Re: Temples!
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2015, 08:50:18 am »

The level of religiousity should also vary between dwarves.  Some may be rather casual in their worship, some strict, and some may even with to impose it on others...

Dwarf A:   It's spring, I'm not supposed to  eat meat... but this spleen is so delicious!  Nom  nom nom
Dwarf B:  It's spring, and praise the lord there are a few raw turnips left for me to eat! 
Dwarf C:  You dare eat moose brains during spring?!?   

Dwarf C punches Dwarf D in the right shoulder, bruising the muscle!
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hamster cheese supplies are low

Hectonkhyres

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Re: Temples!
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2015, 11:26:39 am »

An interesting bit is that this is going to ensure that the religiously zealous, and specifically those zealous towards a single deity, interact with each other far more than with other dwarves. Friendships, maybe marriages, and so forth will form within that clique with increasing levels of frequency as it grows.

This could lead to some interesting bits of factionalism in the future.

And factionalism means ☼FUN☼.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 11:51:25 am by Hectonkhyres »
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And now the thread is about starfish porn.
...originally read that as 'perpetual motion pants' and thought how could I have missed this??
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