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Author Topic: Unified and Shared Technology For A More Integrated World - Discussion  (Read 4623 times)

Isngrim

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Re: Unified and Shared Technology For A More Integrated World - Discussion
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2015, 11:51:32 pm »

(Not sure where golems stand in all of this - my presumption is that they are intended to be at least partially magical in design, so they might not need advanced machinery to work.  Although golem-tech could be made into a combination of dwarven and human magic.)
By definition a Golem is made of a natural material (clay and stone traditionally) and brought to life through magic,the medieval version involves writing on a scroll (something about Names of God if i recall correctly) and placed in its mouth.
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smakemupagus

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Re: Unified and Shared Technology For A More Integrated World - Discussion
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2015, 03:48:07 am »

Unless it's been changed somewhere along the line, Meph's golems are "Dragon Age" style (dwarven volunteers are sealed into, and fused with, the enchanted armor)

Meph

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Re: Unified and Shared Technology For A More Integrated World - Discussion
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2015, 04:57:57 am »

Both correct. I could do either one. The problem with clay golems is that they suck. And I cant make golems a civ member that do work...

Except if I make it a bit like the warlocks and skeletons, with dwarves and golems in one creature, but that would be pretty far from vanilla DF.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: Unified and Shared Technology For A More Integrated World - Discussion
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2015, 11:23:29 am »

Golems as a magical construct would be nice.  Especially with the construct-creature script, which can make functional constructs out of any reagent material.  Even stuff like wood.  Or cheese.  Not that cheese golems are especially dwarfy, but I want to see them in the game anyway.   :P

I mean more in a thematic sense.  The turrets seem purely technological, while golems seem different.

IndigoFenix

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Re: Unified and Shared Technology For A More Integrated World - Discussion
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2015, 05:45:21 pm »

Something worth mentioning: reactions now have support for GET_ITEM_DATA_FROM_REAGENT.  As in, a material can now contain both an item and a material as a reaction product.

We'll need to make a major overhaul, but this will make the crate system much, much more streamlined.  Instead of having a separate reaction for every crate, there just needs to be one automatic 'open crate' reaction.  The item type and material data can be stored in the crate material itself.  Convenient, yes?

Only problem is, each crate will only be able to contain one item.  Still, seeing as how crates are basically a workaround for sending items in trade, that shouldn't be too big of a deal.

Putnam

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Re: Unified and Shared Technology For A More Integrated World - Discussion
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2015, 08:40:17 pm »

Only problem is, each crate will only be able to contain one item.

No, GET_ITEM_DATA_FROM_REAGENT uses ITEM_REACTION_PRODUCT. You can have multiple items per crate, as long as they're named consistently between different ones (PRIMARY, SECONDARY, BONUS or somesuch).

IndigoFenix

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Re: Unified and Shared Technology For A More Integrated World - Discussion
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2015, 12:44:12 am »

Only problem is, each crate will only be able to contain one item.

No, GET_ITEM_DATA_FROM_REAGENT uses ITEM_REACTION_PRODUCT. You can have multiple items per crate, as long as they're named consistently between different ones (PRIMARY, SECONDARY, BONUS or somesuch).

Ah, yes, this should work... what if the reaction has many items but a crate only contains one?  Will the reaction just leave out the missing items or will it produce some buggy thing?

Putnam

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Re: Unified and Shared Technology For A More Integrated World - Discussion
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2015, 01:12:07 am »

Probably the latter. You could always just make them into some "trash" that is automatically disposed of with a reaction that has no product.

IndigoFenix

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Re: Unified and Shared Technology For A More Integrated World - Discussion
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2015, 02:58:50 am »

Probably the latter. You could always just make them into some "trash" that is automatically disposed of with a reaction that has no product.

Packing popcorn?

Meph

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Re: Unified and Shared Technology For A More Integrated World - Discussion
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2015, 06:43:03 am »

Quote
GET_ITEM_DATA_FROM_REAGENT
Cant believe Toady finally added that in. AWESOME!
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Isngrim

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Re: Unified and Shared Technology For A More Integrated World - Discussion
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2015, 05:36:26 pm »

Both correct. I could do either one. The problem with clay golems is that they suck. And I cant make golems a civ member that do work...

Except if I make it a bit like the warlocks and skeletons, with dwarves and golems in one creature, but that would be pretty far from vanilla DF.
they don't have to be made out of clay,that's just what the old story's have them made out of.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: Unified and Shared Technology For A More Integrated World - Discussion
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2015, 07:09:13 am »


I've started to rebuild the factory system, and I've found another inconsistancy, namely the ratio of raw materials -> blocks -> furniture.  Previously I avoided the issue by simply not allowing gnomes to use the furniture making workshops, but it really should be addressed, especially if dwarves are going to be able to build automatic factories.

The problem is simply one of how to account for any possible item that can be run through the machines, and how to determine how many inputs it takes to make a given output.  For regular items this could be hard-coded into the script using preset conversion rules, but for producing items that come in multiple, raw-codable types (tools, weapons/armor, etc), or for inputs that vary in size (corpses and corpse parts) a standard rule should exist.

The previous version used a simple volume conversion, using the hard-coded item sizes, rounded down for each conversion.  Boulders have a volume of 10000, logs have a volume of 5000, bars and blocks have a volume of 600 (except wafers, which are 200), most furniture has a volume of 3000.  So a boulder could be cut into 16 blocks, and it took 5 blocks to make most furniture items.  There are a number of gameplay problems with this method, though, since it produced far too many blocks (and it isn't especially realistic either to presume volume of wood or stone could be converted into blocks with near-100% efficiency, either).  Then there's the question of the furniture workshop, which could exploit the block cutter to make 8 items from a single boulder, were a player to have access to both.

A possible solution would be to use the MATERIAL_SIZE tag instead - basically to use the same number of wood/stone blocks as metal bars that would be used if the item were to be made out of metal.  So 3 blocks to produce most furniture, and could be broken down into the same amount of blocks (with some penalty percentage lost).  The stone and wood cutters could have their numbers placed directly in the code, I guess.  As for using corpses...not really sure what to do about that, I suppose each 'bone' item could be counted as a single block though.  (It takes 3 bones to make one bone helmet that could also be made using 3 bars, so that makes sense.)

This makes automatic machines a lot less impressive, of course.  One and a half items per boulder, instead of three and a bit, using a system that takes a while to set up and has a good chance of killing your own citizens.  Not sure if being automatic quite makes up for that, though the additional speed might still make them worthwhile.  Or the fun and challenge of just getting them to work.

So the question is, what about the furniture workshop?  Going by the same standard, it would use 3 blocks to make most items, instead of the current 2.  Or you could just say that making items by hand is more efficient, if slower, than doing so by machine, which I guess isn't unreasonable.  It would make the automatic furniture maker even less appealing though.  Or the machines could use a smaller, hard-coded material number for each separate item, though this is messy and wouldn't work well for tools/armor/weapons that have variable sizes.

(On a related note, I'm not entirely sure how one can make a cabinet with a volume of 3000 out of three bars with a combined volume of 1800.  You might say it's because cabinets are hollow, but the game calculates weight as if the volume is solid.  I guess conservation of mass just isn't a thing?  Other fun facts: large gems have a volume of 30, and small gems have a volume of 5.  I think these measurements are in cubic centimeters, which means that DF furniture is actually pretty small overall.)

lcy03406

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Re: Unified and Shared Technology For A More Integrated World - Discussion
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2015, 11:16:13 am »

This makes automatic machines a lot less impressive, of course.  One and a half items per boulder, instead of three and a bit, using a system that takes a while to set up and has a good chance of killing your own citizens.  Not sure if being automatic quite makes up for that, though the additional speed might still make them worthwhile.  Or the fun and challenge of just getting them to work.
As my practice, machines are impressive, not because they are automatic or efficient, but because they can make things from almost any material. I build machines for gneiss pipe sections, wooden mechanisms, aluminium armors and so on.

Using material size is better than volume size, I think. At least it will eliminate the exploit that a "slag bar (massive)" can be broke down and built into many items.
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