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[Teneb]

With the recent sale of all things TW:WH I grabbed the Hunter DLC since I've enjoyed both Empire and Lizards a decent amount before, plus getting all them new units to use is always nice. So I jump in to try out Nakai and holy shit what is this. Low movement range horde army, horrendous economy because you need to grab settlements to have any income, surrounded by enemies with like two-three friendly factions that don't have a murderboner for you, the bloody defenders are more of a hindrance than anything since they keep getting aggroed by everyone that finds them, which in turn drags you into a war with nearly everyone, all of that coupled with freaking Wulfhart and co running around with several endgame armies right off the bat that you need to dance around if you don't want to get deleted. And the game wants you to have multiple armies to cover all of this shit? How are you supposed to afford that, I was barely running one stack of saurus, krox and a few of the stegadons, it was fairly ok at murdering shit out in the open but sieges are fucking tough since your siege and missle options are very limited and not exactly cheap.

Edit:

And don't even get me started on fucking Kholis who spawns right on top of you with an army of highly mobile, armor-piercing missile units that just so happen to be perfect counter to your slow, highly armored melee focused army, and the game even tells you to go and fight these dudes ffs.

While there is a mod that allows the Defenders to recruit armies (they can't conquer anything, though), it still doesn't stop the problem I had playing Nakai in Mortal Empires: Everyone and their parrot will attack the defenders, even if they like you.

[nenjin]

Well, you ARE filthy lizard people.

[scriver]

I'm not dirty, I sun bathe every day!

[Cthulhu]

Regarding beastmen, I'm trying out this guide which is made for legendary to see if I can get off on the right foot.  It's a little exploitative at the start, but based around abusing Estelia and your ambush mechanics to power level the first 15-20 turns so you're in a strong position to actually play the game past that.  In the video he gets level 14 on Khazrak on turn 15.  I don't usually like cheesing like that, but considering how hard it is to get started as beastmen I think I'm cool with it.  May also try it with chaos too, though that'll be harder with their stances.

[Teneb]

Regarding beastmen, I'm trying out this guide which is made for legendary to see if I can get off on the right foot.  It's a little exploitative at the start, but based around abusing Estelia and your ambush mechanics to power level the first 15-20 turns so you're in a strong position to actually play the game past that.  In the video he gets level 14 on Khazrak on turn 15.  I don't usually like cheesing like that, but considering how hard it is to get started as beastmen I think I'm cool with it.  May also try it with chaos too, though that'll be harder with their stances.

Frankly, I think for Beastmen it is imperative you deal with Estalia just for long enough to get Gors. Then you should go beat up Bretonnia. A Bretonnia who does not get threatened by some enemy early will confederate and kick off the Ordertide.

[Cthulhu]

I'm following the guide and it's going swimmingly so far.  Didn't get as much fun with Estalia, clan skryre snuck in and stole the town, but I'm doing it to Carcassonne now, got a big boy Khazrak and a really strong shadow mage now.  Shadow is crazy good, the penumbral pendulum just demolishes frontlines.  Haven't actually knocked down carcassonne yet, but we just whooped Karl Franz when he came in to support, so I think the time is coming soon.  Almost have my horde at tier 5.

[Jopax]

Second attempt at Nakai went a bit better, atleast for now. Seems the trick is to just run south and bully the skaven and khalida (tho the latter was helped that the sotekbois kinda stomped her down to a few settlements when she declared on the defenders). Got one fairly decent stack now, working on getting the really stompy stuff so sieges might be more viable. Still have no idea how I'm supposed to sustain two let alone several stacks since even with ten settlements I don't really have the funds to keep a full stack of anything remotely powerful or high-tier. Sure I get cash from fights and taking settlements but those are one-time infusions and can't really sustain me for long.

Also managed to cheese Khosis, baited him into a fight on top of a friendly settlement and used the garrison as a meatshield to soak up the damage and wear out the fairly fragile WE troops before my kroxigors got stuck in and stomped.

[ArchAIngel]

You can use Diplomacy to demand cash from the Defenders, and they cannot split from you, so bullying them for wonga is completely valid and basically required.

[Cthulhu]

My beastmen game is going really well.  Spent probably 70 turns with just the starting minotaurs and all ungors so I could dive straight to tier 5 and desecrated altar, when all the bonuses stack up bestigors are free, 0 recruitment cost 0 upkeep and they start at rank 6.  Once I had a proper army we sailed across the pond, yoinked the sword of khaine from alarielle, and then went stomping through inner Ulthuan back to the coast.  Razed lothern, razed a bunch of other cities, gave up on the extra gold to defile them so Ulthuan's all full of chaos corruption now.  One of the minor factions that didn't declare war on me was following my army occupying all the ruined cities, spicy opportunist.  Once we took down Lothern we sailed out, see you later fuckers, thanks for the sword.

I'm at the Attila the Hun stage, I'm crazy strong with three minotaur units and a giant, just plowing straight into walled cities without bothering to build siege equipment.  Penumbral pendulum, pit of shades, and sword of khaine together means whatever's on the other side of the gate is already in the dumpster by the time it goes down, and then we just roll in and trash everything.  Wandering around wherever I please leaving a trail of destruction.

[Jopax]

You can use Diplomacy to demand cash from the Defenders, and they cannot split from you, so bullying them for wonga is completely valid and basically required.

I'd completely forgotten that was a thing you could do, that's how much I cared for the utterly basic diplomacy, random cash infusions help greatly.

Anyways, decided to give the other side a try and holy hell this is so much better. There's so much more depth and choice involved in managing the whole threat/prestige thing, figuring out which elector count could give you what, the whole hunter business that feels like 4 mini campaigns inside the main one. And the difficulty is so much nicer, you're not overwhelmed by bullshit right out the gate and your tech and army progress is tied to how well you do in the field and any threats that do arise come entirely from your mismanagement of the hostility (as I learned the hard way and had to race back home to not lose my capital to the stack spawned by the level 5 hostility event.
Also I think I enjoy the Empire gameplay way more than the lizard one, mostly because it's a bit more varied and you gotta manage both range and melee stuff (and not forget about your great cannons so the fucking idiots walk straight into enemy bomber range while chasing a random unit off the walls).

One thing I'll say tho, fuck Vampire Coast AI and its tendency to shit out stacks with dozens of bombers, those things are not fun to deal with, especially when you don't have proper ranged or magic counters that can kill them before they get into instant-frontline-deletion range

[Cthulhu]

The deckhand bombers or the bat bombers?  The bats are maybe one of the most bullshit units in the game depending on what you're playing.  Some factions have literally no answer to them.

[nenjin]

I'd forgotten about the starting Giant. He single-handedly makes that start IMO. I kept mine alive through my entire playthrough.

[Cthulhu]

So far I'm not a huge fan.  He certainly tears shit up but he's slow as hell and he's so big and tall that every archer in the area can get a bead on him.  The AI isn't smart enough to do it but giants are pretty easy to pick off with minimal damage, especially if you've got a light mage.  My favorite biggun unit is probably the warsphinx, which basically works like a giant chariot, bouncing around between units to tank their morale and do huge charge damage.  The starting one for Settra is basically unkillable in the early game.

[Jopax]

Was talking about the deckhands. The bats are annoying but you don't see them that early in great numbers and they're fairly squishy so a volley of two from the gunline takes care of them easily. The deckhands on the other hand are a big blob that can soak up a ton of shots before losing any units and they shit them out in like a dozen stacks at once, so by the time you've even dented one they're already on top of your army and happily blasting it to bits.

[scriver]

Not to interrupt your discussion, but lately I've been thinking about Total Warhammer 3. Has there been any rumours or hints about it yet? Particularly factions. There's not many big ones left for it, is there? Chaos Dwarves?