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Author Topic: How is it meant to be played?  (Read 6435 times)

bahihs

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How is it meant to be played?
« on: January 13, 2015, 12:46:41 pm »

As someone who likes the to play games the way they were intended (instead of using "gamey" tricks or bugs) I was wondering how certain things in the game were actually meant to be dealt with.

Case in point: Aquifers.

Everyone knows you can use the double-slit method to crack any aquifer of any depth. Yet how were aquifer's supposed to be dealt with before this? Are you supposed to import stone from other civs and never pierce the aquifer (it would explain the "Might be hard to get stone here" message on embark). Or is there an actual, logical way to pierce an aquifer? (The best one I've seen is the "aquifer plug" where you drop a block of sand/clay/dirt after channeling the aquifer layer, then dig through the  "plug" to reach the bottom. Though this method becomes hairy with multi-level aquifers.) Pumping the aquifer into itself doesn't really make sense if you think about it (unless I'm thinking about it wrong).

I'm sure there are other examples, actually now that I think about it, alot of these result from the game's unfinished state, which is circumvented by the game's emergent nature and the player's creativity/insanity.
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Magistrum

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Re: How is it meant to be played?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2015, 01:16:13 pm »

I'm sure there are other examples, actually now that I think about it, alot of these result from the game's unfinished state, which is circumvented by the game's emergent nature and the player's creativity/insanity.
Dwarf Fortress runs on players creativity/insanity.
Actually Toady One himself said that there's no sane or intended way of doing it, as in the last DF Talk:
Quote from:  DF Talk 22
Threetoe:   The next question comes from Pauli, and he asks, "Have you ever planned to make improvements to new features such as machinery, cave-ins, and collapsing aquifer-related functionality? It would be exciting to penetrate the aquifer layers and use some kind of cave-ins, pumps, or constructions. At the moment it can't reasonably be done.[...]"
Toady:   I think people do break through the aquifer somehow, I don't know how they do it, but it's probably not a reasonable solution.[...]
jsut do it however you think is right.
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bahihs

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Re: How is it meant to be played?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2015, 02:02:39 pm »

Hmm, that quote is kind of ambiguous. So does that mean such features are planned (since he says its not a "reasonable" solution) or that in reality there is no reasonable solution and it will stay the way it is?
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Aslandus

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Re: How is it meant to be played?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2015, 02:05:51 pm »

I think you can also search the layer above to find a vein of ore or gems to dig through. A lot of people like to take the "gamey" out of the simulation by avoiding "exploits" and the like, but generally Dwarf fortress just runs by its own rules... It almost seems at times like Toady adds things sometimes to make the game harder, and within the next day someone will have it weaponized...

It's meant to be played however you want, if you want to avoid duping metals and train your militia only by leaving them to train and spar (generally regarded as the "realistic way to play"), or if you defend your fortress with nothing but weapon traps, or if you like to deck your entire militia in masterwork adamantine you spawned in with DFhack, then that's how you play and we would be in the wrong to say you are playing wrong. I turn off aquifers myself because I don't want to deal with them...

Just keep in mind, the only reason humans dig deep into the ground is for wells or mining (mines being dug in dryer climates for the most part), and we don't really have a way of getting through them in real life besides going around or pumping them dry (at least as far as I know, being a random dude with limited knowledge on mining practices), which you can't do in DF since aquifers are infinite water sources

Niddhoger

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Re: How is it meant to be played?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2015, 02:58:33 pm »

Aquifer tiles have very high drainage.  Think of it as simply taking a gallon of water from one hole and dumping it into another.  It should take longer for the water to disperse, but this is still a game. Pumping them into themselves might not make much since, but endlessly flooding from just one square really doesn't either.  You are simply using the aquifers properties against itself. 

However that comment from Toady did shock me for two reasons 1) Did he truly mean for aquifers to be impenetrable barriers? 2) Is he that out of touch with the game hes creating?

By now there are about 5 methods for piercing an aquifer (Double-slit, pump-stack, cave-in, freezing, cast-obsidian) with a few minor derivatives of each.  6 if you consider punching the aquifer from below and draining it into caverns/off map edge (while you secure it) is a distinct method.  It just seems surprising that he wouldn't even be aware of these methods, not like he both designed the aquifers and the mechanics used to defeat them >.>

Personally, I'd go with either double-slit or pump-stack.  Cave-ins and freezing (and obsidan) work fine, but they leave giant holes in the ground.  They are also hard to use effectively without knowing the full depth of your aquifer.  You can only know with certainty that an aquifer is either 1 level or "more levels" Piercing a 1-level aquifer with the cave-in method isn't too bad.  However, you have to increase the size of the plug by 2 every layer you go down.  You start with a 5x5 hole (which is a 3x3 plug), but it just keeps increasing by 4 from here (2 is the plug and the other 2 is the channeled out ring).  For a 6-layer aquifer you are looking at channeling out a 25x25 hole for a single 1x1 staircase... and I've heard of 13 layer ones.  This also means channeling out the entire 21x21 underneath the initial plug (and continued channeling over the aquifer until you get through all levels).  All the while you risk dumb dorf's channeling out from under one another/getting caught in the cave-in.  What I am getting at is that I'd never use this method other than to quicker pierce a shallow aquifer.   Also, its kinda gamey that a cave-in of loose sand would automatically destroy the aquifer.  The aquifer-tiles just disintegrate from a single layer of sand hitting them... Cave-ins are weird (and lets not forget the magic of magma-pistons)

Freezing is also dangerous and winds up with a smaller hole than the cave-in (unless you live in a permanent freezing biome, then its even smaller).  However, you risk the problem of dwarves channeling out from under one another (which is instant death by freezing).  It also requires you to know how large the aquifer is beforehand to do properly.  Like the cave-in method, it does work very well for 1-layer aquifers if you start work ASAP in the winter.  A single layer only needs 16 squares channeled out and 8 walls put up (as well as a constructed staircase) for most biomes.  Again though, this is highly dangerous if you misjudge your freezing period and get caught with a half-dug hole by the time the ice thaws.  This whole method relies on the idea that water INSTANTLY freezes when it enters an exposed surface tile.  However, I don't think its possible to unflag a tile as "surface" once its been exposed.  Maybe... casting obsidian over in a layer over it?

Cast Obsidian is rarely used.  If you have a volcano, you can just dig down next to the volcano and you can safely bypass the aquifer without any tom-foolery.  The aquifer will never be adjacent to the volcano.  If you have a magma-vent, its probably the same thing.  Never just settled on a magma vent that wasn't in the 2nd cavern layer, though.  However, if you want to re-pierce the aquifer (or you were lucky enough to dig-around it before), you can pump the magma into the aquifer.  This will allow you to make a much more compact hole, as your walls will be flush against the aquifer-bearing tiles.  You'd start at 3x3 and just increase by 2 for every other layer.  This is probably the least "gamey" method of piercing the acquifer, but it also depends on how you get the magma to the surface.  Most people will use either giant pump stacks powered by hydro-reactors, or impulse ramps (horrendously, unapologetically exploity).  Really hard to move large quantities with minecarts without the impulse ramps.  On top of everything else you are still dealing with magma... so all the !FUN! That implies.  If you have a volcano/vent present, you can just channel a path for the magma to flow... just be sure to have a magma-safe way of cutting off hte flow.

The pump-stack method is much more compact than hte others and works perfectly fine no matter how deep the aquifer is.  However, it uses hydro-reactors and infinitely absorbing water back into the aquifer.  My main issue is the often used edge-of-map drain.  Now, just using the caverns is one thing, but most will dig to the map edge then smooth/carve fortifications and use that.  This is a layer of pure stone.  You know what is supposed to be in the tile on the other side of those fortifications? More pure stone! More pure stone for MILES! Its one thing for the water to be reabsorbed into the aquifer, but for water to flow into pure stone and magically disappear?

Double-slit still requires you to endlessly pump back into the aquifer, but this really doesn't become silly until you use the last (isolated) aquifer square as a sink.  Otherwise you can just imagine the water being dispersed into the other hundreds of tiles.  It doesn't require any exploity or gamey behavior beyond that, but is a rather tedious process of constantly unsuspending walls.  On the plus side, your pump stack operator might gain some strength out of it >.>

Again though, there is no default way that we are SUPPOSED to pierce aquifers.  The games on creator doesn't even know one of the methods used (yet alone all of them), so take your pick.  Use whichever you feel is the right balance between "gamey" and "fun" However, keep in mind that you need to use DF-hack's reveal feature (or have already pierced aquifer) to know the aquifer's "more than 1" depth for use in cave in (and freezing).  Trying to guess means leaving several abandoned plugs as you restart the process all over again. You can guess around with freezing method, but if you are wrong it'll greatly increase your time (which is often a factor due to spring thaw).  I tend to just use double-slit for any multi-level aquifer.  If I can confirm its just a single layer, I'll just drop a 4x4 plug (to leave a 2x2 staircase).  The 6x6 hole isn't too bad to "repair." 
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bahihs

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Re: How is it meant to be played?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2015, 04:28:33 pm »

I actually use the double slit method myself (or the plug if the aquifer is one-level). But basically I'm just wondering if soil-layer-aquifer starts are supposed to be "stone-less". Basically, what did people do before someone came up with a way to pierce aquifers? Just not embark on them? Import stone?

It seems from Toady's quote that current methods are not what he envisioned for cracking the aquifer (if any). I guess I'm just curious of how he will deal with this issue.

And I do agree that, since DF is an open-ended, single player game, any and all playing styles are acceptable. I think what I'm really trying to get at is, how would we pierce an aquifer in real-life (or as real-life as fantasy can get anyway) and will those methods be formally implemented, or is it Toady's intention to leave aquifer's as they are?
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FallenAngel

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Re: How is it meant to be played?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2015, 04:47:28 pm »

Every way is technically correct.
However, with many tasks, it's easier to define a small group of "better" ways.
I, for one, just find places without aquifers, and I may remove them at some point, to make settling easier.

Bumber

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Re: How is it meant to be played?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2015, 09:28:51 pm »

IMO, the least gamey way necessitates draining the aquifer into the caverns while you plug the leaks. This means either finding a way around the aquifer first or using screw pumps and floor hatches to get a miner underneath.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 09:30:48 pm by Bumber »
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Eldin00

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Re: How is it meant to be played?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2015, 09:42:58 pm »

A pump stack (dwarf powered or powered by wind/water/perpetual-motion) to get water out of the hole to somewhere it won't cause problems while you seal up the sides is the oldest way to get through an aquifer. And since you can build a pump entirely from wood, you don't even need to bring any stone with you to build it. But getting through multi-level aquifers this way isn't easy.
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NullForceOmega

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Re: How is it meant to be played?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2015, 11:08:27 pm »

Honestly, it's not as if the current mechanics of aquifers in-game are sane either.  Since the game is a pure sandbox, where you are intended to solve emergent problems through your own intelligence, there is no truly 'wrong' or 'right' way to overcome anything DF throws at you.  If using a method feels to 'gamey' or exploitative, just do it differently.  I'll use the double-slit method because it is fast, effective, and while it's a pain to micro it you will bust the aquifer no matter how deep it is.
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utunnels

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Re: How is it meant to be played?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2015, 11:15:25 pm »

I used to try those methods.
But nowadays I prefer to stay above the aquifer.

If I want to have lots of stones, I simple embark on an aquifer-free area, and there are always underground lakes/seas which I can get unlimited water from.
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tussock

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Re: How is it meant to be played?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2015, 01:21:31 am »

I have a file somewhere. It's probably missing a bunch of stuff. I like my forts to look sort of realistic (heh, YKWIM), though much of this is fun. Which is the point, really. Basically, play like a newb and use things for what they say they're for. Floodgates stop water, bridges cross gaps, stockpiles for stockpiling, trade goods for trading, sieges break in and kill everybody if you're rich enough to attract them, and minecarts carry ore up from the deep mines by being pushed.

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Naryar

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Re: How is it meant to be played?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2015, 02:34:40 am »

Embark on volcanic rock. Problem solved.

Findulidas

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Re: How is it meant to be played?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2015, 02:37:41 am »

Given how much anything dealing with water drains fps I find its fair to deal with water in whatever way possible as quickly as possible.
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Niddhoger

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Re: How is it meant to be played?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2015, 03:33:54 am »

It does sound like aquifers are not ment to be breached, but it could just be that Toady never put that much thought into it.  You have to remember that DF is in an ALPHA stage still, there are rough edges and not-fully implemented features all over the place.  Aquifers very much so feel like one of these, so its a not-all-there feature that we can deal with as we see fit (with the tools and mechanics already given to us).  Again, there are several methods that exist to pierce an aquifer, and none of them feel half as exploity as quantum stockpiles and impulse ramps.

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